Extreme Puzzle

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Re: Extreme Puzzle

Postby totuan » Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:03 am

Hi Robert,
Mauriès Robert wrote:The Kraken very often to be used on this forum proceeds in the same way and you do not say that it is trial and error!
- the use of the extension (or bifurcation), what you call OR, which is found in the Tetouan [edited: totuan] diagrams, and there again you don't talk about trial and error for Tetouan [edited: totuan ].

I think that you're understanding about T&E in a different way than people on this forum.

Mauriès Robert wrote:Anyway, I mean..,
- TDP is also very easy to use as a visual coloring method when you don't need to explain to everyone the paths you follow.

Why you don't need to explain to everyone the paths you follow? Most of people here likes to see your path then they can learn and increase their skills if possible.

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Re: Extreme Puzzle

Postby StrmCkr » Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:57 am

Code: Select all
You're not going to make me believe, for example, that the resolutions proposed in the tarek puzzles by each other are obtained the first time without having tried something else beforehand that leads to nothing or a partial result. Even if a pattern is spotted, it would be a lucky guess if it eliminates the anti-door.


your confusion the process of finding something as the trial part vs the construct as presented in its self as the "trial".
searching for anything is "trial":

building something from given parts or a list of parts which either hit true and eliminate or hit true and do nothing can also be a "trial"
the physical construct as a whole is not trial and error but its description or methodology in how it functions can be trial.

krakens as present are almost N set's joined by N-sets to form an overall deduction. {strong links simplicity or nodes}
again all coded as And else (not And) logic gates.
i have zero issues with them due to this fact.

several of the users you have named posted techniques which are known to as Forcing nets with sub-chains which are trial and error, again no issue with them as they have mentioned what they are and are trial and error eliminations.

yes trial and error can be singular candidates, but they can also Bifurcation which is what you are doing following 2 paths.

i understand exactly what you are doing, as i said before i have your method coded as my bruteforce solving function
locate bivalves/bi-locals and project both as true on the grid and look for commonality between the two.
{I go one step further and imply the common solved cells between the two grids as true. }

it doesn't use coloring: but it helps a manual player track the links the path moves down: which is the point.

logic gates do not retain information from previous link and apply grid changes before triggering the next marker.
tracks and anti tracks do.

again, my point is the fact you use bifurcation on two points
part A : which generates the whole solution path/ or mostly a completed one / or establishes comminality
part B: generates contradictions + partial solution
and compare the two perform eliminations based on identical scenarios between the two truths.

for example: (5)r7c5 = r6c5 - r6c1 = (5-9)r8c1 =(924)r7c278 => -5 r7c8; ste
Code: Select all
 +------------------------+------------------------+--------------------------+
 |  236   5       2468    |  1478    9     1347    |  12346    1346   2346    |
 |  1     23489   2468    |  458     238   345     |  234569   7      23469   |
 |  239   23479   247     |  15      23    6       |  15       8      2349    |
 +------------------------+------------------------+--------------------------+
 |  236   78      9       |  46      1     24      |  78       346    5       |
 |  4     128     12568   |  3       7     259     |  1689     16     689     |
 | c356   137     1567    |  4569   b56    8       |  134679   2      34679   |
 +------------------------+------------------------+--------------------------+
 |  8    e249     3       |  5679   a56    579     | e247     e4-5    1       |
 | d259   6       125     |  15789   4     13579   |  2378     35     2378    |
 |  7     14      145     |  2       38    135     |  3468     9      3468    |
 +------------------------+------------------------+--------------------------+

is a logic gate construct built using the given information on the grid.

your:
P'(5r7C5) : -5r7c5->[6r7c5->5r6c5->5r8c1->9r7c2]->57r7c46 => -5r7C8, stte.

the difference is you bifurcated the choice of the bivalve instead of using the links and data sets
this grid shows all the bi-locals just as your original link also does
mine on the other hand also shows the "5"'s that removed due to a N-set { fish }
bi local grid.PNG
bi local grid.PNG (126.13 KiB) Viewed 666 times


heres my problem out lined:
you pick a cell which happens to be a bivalve and bi-local.
you surmised A OR B is true {which is great}
instead of writing R7C5 or R6C5 is "5" the bi-local, you instead use the bivalve for the not case. if R7C5 is not 5 then R7c5 must be 6.
then we follow the implication of the induced 6. {instead of its not 5. ie R6C5 = 5 } from their we follow the chain of 5's true/not true using induced links.
then we arrive at the switch from 5-9 {another bi-local} which leads to another switch 9(R7C2) -> 2{R7C7) then we noticed the unmarked 3 link on candidate 4 in R7C2 has 2 removed spots making it a single {but this isn't mentioned} = R7C8{4} instead we write that (57) R7C46 or that their is only 2 spots left for the 5 and apparently 7 {which also has its cell count reduced}

for here we test what if R7C5 = 5 ie R6C5 = 6 the similarities between the two is R7C8 <> 5

the whole point I'm saying is the difference in your presentation is the use of trial and error + memory chain to derive a solution:

the difference is noted above with swapping to the "5/6" from bivalves for the not case + the unnoticed 3 link on 4. and induction coloring

so again with logic gate we can build it quicker and easier without trialing both bivalves and both locations for similarities and it contains the omitted information that does the ground work for it to function:

let start with the bi-local:
(5) R7C5 => R7C8 <> 5
or
( not 5 ) R7C5 = {5} R6C5 = (not 5) R6C1 = (5)R8C1 & (not 9) = (9)R7C2 [- 1 cell almost Hidden Set ] = [Hidden set] 24 R7C78 => R7C8 <> 5
AHS.PNG
AHS.PNG (109.17 KiB) Viewed 666 times


after all that fun stuff.
instead of trialing the 56 bivalves we could have simply trialed the tipple link 4 on Row 7 and found the exact same scenarios {however it would be a three way check instead of 2}

ps: True or NoT true isn't the same as: True or True.

one examines both cases of yes or no from the same origin with out changing anything.
the other one, nope can't as it follows 2 different paths leading from both truths.

like another ? is why didn't you pick R7C8,R8C8 make this AHS
like this: {which backwards generates the other above comments}
Code: Select all
+----------------------+-------------------+---------------------+
| 236     5      2468  | 1478   9    1347  | 12346   1346  2346  |
| 1       23489  2468  | 458    238  345   | 234569  7     23469 |
| 239     23479  247   | 15     23   6     | 15      8     2349  |
+----------------------+-------------------+---------------------+
| 236     78     9     | 46     1    24    | 78      346   5     |
| 4       128    12568 | 3      7    259   | 1689    16    689   |
| 356     137    1567  | 4569   56   8     | 134679  2     34679 |
+----------------------+-------------------+---------------------+
| 8       (249)  3     | 5679   56   579   | 7(24)   (45)  1     |
| 2-5(9)  6      125   | 15789  4    13579 | 2378    3(5)  2378  |
| 7       14     145   | 2      38   135   | 3468    9     3468  |
+----------------------+-------------------+---------------------+

which is easier technically then the first method.

to me, there is a lot of ad-hock information used off the pencil-marks post induction from the path to generalize anything from your moves as its not including the
information/or information removed from via the non included cells in the overall path.
Last edited by StrmCkr on Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:43 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Extreme Puzzle

Postby Mauriès Robert » Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:03 am

Hi Totuan,
Excuse me for writing your name wrong! I corrected it on my post.
When I say "on't need to explain to everyone", I'm referring to many players who practice for them and don't go to the forums to explain. As far as I'm concerned, I've made the effort in general to explain my resolutions.
As for T&E, I don't know if it's a comprehension problem, but still, if writing P'(A): -A->B->C => -D is T&E, then the equivalent AIC : (A=A')-(B'=B)-(C'=C) => -D is also T&E.
I rather believe that on this forum, some participants denigrate methods that are not their own. This will not be enough to make me change my mind nor my method. But unlike them, I always observe with interest the methods that are not mine.
Sincerely
Robert
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Re: Extreme Puzzle

Postby eleven » Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:00 pm

Hi Denis,

i never had a deeper look into your resolution rules. But if i remember right, then a basic difference between your chains and AIC's was, that each following link in your chains is "remembering" all the links (and consequences) before.
If that's true, it would help others to understand them.
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Re: Extreme Puzzle

Postby Mauriès Robert » Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:23 pm

Hi StrmCkr,
Thank you for your efforts in explaining your point of view to me.
I don't quite understand the substance of your explanations because of my difficulty in translating English.
However, with the two examples you give, I can see that we are doing the same thing but with different words and graphics.
It also seems to me that you think that I don't look at the structure of the grid before making my choices and that I choose my tracks (or anti-tracks) at random. This is not the case.
On the puzzle you give as an example, like you, I can clearly see the structure of the 5 and the different pairs (strong links) available that you mark using Alan Baker's method. These pairs are marked in red and this examination of the structure conditions my choice of the 5c5 pair to draw the two conjugated tracks allowing the same eliminations that you get with Alan Baker's diagrams.
Here is the puzzle where these tracks are traced with the generated eliminations. You draw lines, I draw colors!

Image

You propose otherwise the elimination of 5r7c8 by another scheme of Alan Baker. There also nothing different in the principle with the "work" of an anti-track starting from 5r7c5, which I write (see the second picture) :
-5r7c5->5r6c5->5r8c1->9r7c2->2r7c7->4r7c8 => -5r7c8, -5r8c46.
But perhaps you'd prefer I write:
-5r7c5->6r7c5->-6r6c5->5r6c5->-5r6c1->5r8c1->-9r8c1->9r7c2->-24r7c2->24r7c78 with strong and weak links as in AIC's, which I indicated with circles.

Image

Unless you finally find it simple that your graphics are prettier, which I'll grant you!
Sincerely
Robert
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Re: Extreme Puzzle

Postby denis_berthier » Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:40 pm

eleven wrote:Hi Denis,
i never had a deeper look into your resolution rules.

I have some doubts about this, because we had long discussions about them. But if you say so...
And if you're slightly interested in Sudoku theory, you're missing a lot ;)

eleven wrote:But if i remember right, then a basic difference between your chains and AIC's was, that each following link in your chains is "remembering" all the links (and consequences) before.
If that's true, it would help others to understand them.

Hi eleven,
The motto of AICs is reversibility. Reversibility entails that inferences based on the chains can only be local, i.e. from one node to the next (or from the previous one in the reversed view).

Some of the chains I consider are reversible: bivalue-chains (which are just another view of basic AICs), z-chains (which are just bivalue-chains modulo the target), Reversible-Sp-chains (which are a logically consistent presentation of AICS with included Subsets, with the first and only proof that they are reversible, in a precise sense).

And some of my chains (the most powerful ones, i.e. t-whips, whips, braids, g-whips,...) are not reversible, because the justification of each node of the chain relies on the "memory" of the previous nodes (i.e. of the previous right-linking candidates, not of the previous links).

Much after I introduced whips, braids, g-whips, ...(that was in HLS in 2007), some people started to use the vocabulary of "memory chains", with, AFAIK, no precise meaning attached to this expression. But one can indeed say that my above-mentioned non-reversible chains are "memory chains" - as long as this doesn't imply reducing them to some mumble-jumble.

Contrary to AICs, the motto of my chains is "knowledge is not depleted when you use it". You can use the same candidate several times to draw multiple conclusions.
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Re: Extreme Puzzle

Postby StrmCkr » Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:26 pm

Hi
StrmCkr,
Thank you for your efforts in explaining your point of view to me.


to simplify my concerns:
the constructs mark all non related bilocals in red.
then attempts to draw the path-out with crossing off digits but doesn't show all the linking: {missing the Green circles}

makes it visually as a trial scenario looking at ad-hock information to rationalize the eliminations.

added to the visual is your chain P1,P2 presentations:
tend to have non-related {digit nodes} & missing information that justifies the eliminations

with the Green circles added it visually shows what you are using in full.
5-strong link {weak linked to} 5 -strong links, 9 -strong links , AHS[24] + =>> eliminations.

then it makes sense what you built directly
which is 1 path and no anti-track needed.

with that green stuff added and the extra non necessary information not-marked then yes its not a trial and error construct and we are doing the same thing with a different tactic to finding the move.
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Re: Extreme Puzzle

Postby Mauriès Robert » Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:10 pm

Hi StrmCkr,
The justification for the eliminations obtained by an anti-track is given by the following property that I have established once and for all:
"One can eliminate any candidate who sees both an anti-track candidate and an anti-track generating candidate".
If you don't have this property in mind, you certainly don't understand what I'm doing.
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Re: Extreme Puzzle

Postby StrmCkr » Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:40 am

Mauriès Robert wrote:Hi StrmCkr,
The justification for the eliminations obtained by an anti-track is given by the following property that I have established once and for all:
"One can eliminate any candidate who sees both an anti-track candidate and an anti-track generating candidate".
If you don't have this property in mind, you certainly don't understand what I'm doing.
Robert


i do get what your doing

5 or not 5
6 or not 6

using 56 or 56

r7c5 is 5 and r6C5 is 6 {find out what happens on the grid} mark it up
R7C5 is 6 and is R6C5 is 5 {find out what happens on the grid in this case and mark it up}
Draw conclusions from identical marking.
- the 6 isn't needed { see comment further down }

the construct is 5 and not 5 extra digits obfuscate the logic. ie 1 track.

both chains could follow from both points A) 5 path and a 6th path if they are present. {in this example the extra 2 paths aren't presented but they definitely can be short version below}
Code: Select all
+---------------------+-----------------------+----------------------+
| 236    5      2468  | 1478     9     1347   | 12346   1346   2346  |
| 1      23489  2468  | 458      238   345    | 234569  7      23469 |
| 239    23479  247   | 15       23    6      | 15      8      2349  |
+---------------------+-----------------------+----------------------+
| 236    78     9     | (46)     1     24     | 78      36-4   5     |
| 4      128    12568 | 3        7     259    | 1689    16     689   |
| 36(5)  137    1567  | 4569     (56)  8      | 134679  2      34679 |
+---------------------+-----------------------+----------------------+
| 8      (249)  3     | 57-9(6)  (56)  579    | 7(24)   -5(4)  1     |
| 2(59)  6      125   | 1789-5   4     1379-5 | 2378    35     2378  |
| 7      14     145   | 2        38    135    | 3468    9      3468  |
+---------------------+-----------------------+----------------------+


where the 5 path has 1 starting point. which is 5 or its not. and a network of true/false conditions leading to a potential eliminations that sees conditions the same as the starting point
A= .. =A

anyways now that we see on the same page more or less I'll leave my comments as moot and move on as it wont advance either of our capabilities
i will end it on this note: TDP its not Trial and error persay it is a method that describes how you find/build an elimination network.
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Re: Extreme Puzzle

Postby Mauriès Robert » Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:02 am

StrmCkr wrote:i will end it on this note: TDP its not Trial and error persay it is a method that describes how you find/build an elimination network.

That's fine by me.
Sincerely
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Re: Extreme Puzzle

Postby denis_berthier » Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:55 am

totuan wrote:02: Present as diagram: => r2c8<>3
Code: Select all
(2-4)r8c8=(4-6)r7c8=r1c8----------------------------
 ||                                                 |
(2-7)r6c8=r6c1-(7)r3c1                              |
 ||             ||                                  |
 ||            (7)r3c5-r8c5=(7-2)r8c6=(2-6)r9c6=r9c7-r3c7=r3c2-r6c2=(6-3)r6c4=r4c46-r4c7=r12c7*
 ||             ||                                  |
(2)r2c8*       (7)r3c7------------------------------


Hi totuan. Could you explain how this should be read?
What are the vertical/horizontal double links?
What are the *s?
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Re: Extreme Puzzle

Postby totuan » Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:58 am

Hi denis,
denis_berthier wrote:
totuan wrote:02: Present as diagram: => r2c8<>3
Code: Select all
(2-4)r8c8=(4-6)r7c8=r1c8----------------------------
 ||                                                 |
(2-7)r6c8=r6c1-(7)r3c1                              |
 ||             ||                                  |
 ||            (7)r3c5-r8c5=(7-2)r8c6=(2-6)r9c6=r9c7-r3c7=r3c2-r6c2=(6-3)r6c4=r4c46-r4c7=r12c7*
 ||             ||                                  |
(2)r2c8*       (7)r3c7------------------------------

Hi totuan. Could you explain how this should be read?
What are the vertical/horizontal double links?
What are the *s?

This is dual Kraken. (*) marked of eliminations (it is not much necessary).
For vertical, at least one of 2’s on colum 8 and 7’s row 3 must be true. It meant:
(2)r2c8=(2)r6c8=(2)r8c8 and (7)r3c1=(7)r3c5=(7)r3c7
Then:
Code: Select all
r8c8=2 =>(2-4)r8c8=(4-6)r7c8=r1c8--r3c7=r3c2-r6c2=(6-3)r6c4=r4c46-r4c7=r12c7 => r3c8<>3
r6c8=2 => r3c1<>7
          r3c5=7 => (7)r3c5-r8c5=(7-2)r8c6=(2-6)r9c6=r9c7-r3c7=r3c2-r6c2=(6-3)r6c4=r4c46-r4c7=r12c7 => r3c8<>3
          r3c7=7 => (7)r3c7-(6)r3c7=r3c2-r6c2=(6-3)r6c4=r4c46-r4c7=r12c7 => r3c8<>3
r2c8=2 => r3c8<>3

Hope, it is a bit clearly for you.

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Re: Extreme Puzzle

Postby denis_berthier » Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:04 pm

totuan wrote:...Hope, it is a bit clearly for you.

Yes, thanks. Vertical lines are OR branching.
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