Difficult Puzzles. Chains can be avoided.

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Difficult Puzzles. Chains can be avoided.

Postby wapati » Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:22 pm

This is a new thread of my same old.
The previous thread was disturbed and a new thread is warranted, to keep the pages easy to access.




Code: Select all
. . .|. 3 .|. . 9
. 9 2|8 . 6|. . .
. 3 .|. . 4|6 2 .
-----+-----+-----
. . .|. . 9|. . 3
. 2 .|3 . 5|. 4 .
5 . .|7 . .|. . .
-----+-----+-----
. 8 4|6 . .|. 3 .
. . .|9 . 2|4 8 .
2 . .|. 8 .|. . .
wapati
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Postby wapati » Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:32 pm

Bonus puzzle.

Code: Select all
. 6 5|1 . .|. . .
4 . .|. 6 5|7 . .
. . .|. 9 .|1 . .
-----+-----+-----
8 . .|7 . .|. . 2
. . 6|. . .|4 . .
9 . .|. . 1|. . 3
-----+-----+-----
. . 3|. 2 .|. . .
. . 8|5 1 .|. . 9
. . .|. . 4|8 1 .
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Postby re'born » Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:18 pm

here,wapati wrote:I see big fish, SE sees minnows.

Somewhere in between, I suspect!

Code: Select all
. . .|. 1 .|8 . 4
7 . 4|. . 2|. . .
. 5 .|. 3 .|2 . .
-----+-----+-----
6 3 .|. . 5|. . .
. 4 5|2 . 8|3 6 .
. . .|3 . .|. 5 8
-----+-----+-----
. . 3|. 2 .|. 8 .
. . .|7 . .|4 . 3
4 . 7|. 5 .|. . .


I see a remote naked pair, an xyz-wing and a 2-string kite. But with all of the potential deadly patterns out there, musn't there be a faster way to solve the puzzle?
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Postby wapati » Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:10 am

Busy puzzle. SE uses APE, which I don't know.

Is APE a pattern?


Anyways, solvable by patterns that I know.

Code: Select all
8 . .|2 . .|. . 9
. 7 .|. 6 .|. . 2
. 3 .|. . .|6 7 .
-----+-----+-----
. . .|6 . .|. 9 .
. . 9|4 . 7|3 . .
. 1 .|. . 5|. . .
-----+-----+-----
. 4 8|. . .|. 1 .
7 . .|. 8 .|. 2 .
6 . .|. . 3|. . 7
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Postby wapati » Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:11 pm

Minnows, quite a few.

Code: Select all
. 9 8|. 7 1|. . .
3 7 .|2 . 6|. 9 .
. . .|. . .|. . .
-----+-----+-----
. . 6|. 1 .|. 4 5
. . .|6 . 3|. . .
2 4 .|. 8 .|9 . .
-----+-----+-----
. . .|. . .|. . .
. 5 .|1 . 9|. 6 7
. . .|7 2 .|1 5 .
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Postby wapati » Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:15 pm

re'born wrote:
I see a remote naked pair, an xyz-wing and a 2-string kite. But with all of the potential deadly patterns out there, musn't there be a faster way to solve the puzzle?


LOL, good job, I had 4 as my shortest method. You want less than 3?
Ask Tarek or some other chain genius.:D
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Postby re'born » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:47 pm

wapati wrote:Busy puzzle. SE uses APE, which I don't know.

Is APE a pattern?


You can read about it here. It is a pattern, just not one I would recommend people spend much time looking for. In this case, I think the application of it is ridiculous when the much easier to spot skyscraper is around to make the same deductions. Inexplicably, the skyscraper is a higher rated pattern (in SE) than an APE which I think is complete nonsense.
Last edited by re'born on Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby wapati » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:09 pm

Thanks nrob'er!

I'll skip worrying about APE.
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Postby re'born » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:23 pm

wapati wrote:Minnows, quite a few.

Code: Select all
. 9 8|. 7 1|. . .
3 7 .|2 . 6|. 9 .
. . .|. . .|. . .
-----+-----+-----
. . 6|. 1 .|. 4 5
. . .|6 . 3|. . .
2 4 .|. 8 .|9 . .
-----+-----+-----
. . .|. . .|. . .
. 5 .|1 . 9|. 6 7
. . .|7 2 .|1 5 .


Basic techniques get you here:
Code: Select all
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
 | 56    9     8     | 34    7     1     | 56    23    234   |
 | 3     7     14    | 2     5     6     | 48    9     148   |
 | 1456  126   1245  | 348   9     48    | 56    7     134   |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 7     38    6     | 9     1     2     | 38    4     5     |
 | 59    18    59    | 6     4     3     | 7     128   28    |
 | 2     4     13    | 5     8     7     | 9     13    6     |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 1489  123   7     | 48    6     5     | 2348  38    3489  |
 | 48    5     24    | 1     3     9     | 248   6     7     |
 | 4689  36    349   | 7     2     48    | 1     5     3489  |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*


To avoid a deadly pattern in r13c17<56>, we must have r3c1<>5,6. Moreover, there is a short xy-chain:

3-[r4c7]-8-[r2c7]-4-[r2c3]-1-[r6c3]-3, => r4c2<>3.

These two moves solve the puzzle.
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Postby daj95376 » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:17 am

wapati wrote:Minnows, quite a few.

Code: Select all
. 9 8|. 7 1|. . .
3 7 .|2 . 6|. 9 .
. . .|. . .|. . .
-----+-----+-----
. . 6|. 1 .|. 4 5
. . .|6 . 3|. . .
2 4 .|. 8 .|9 . .
-----+-----+-----
. . .|. . .|. . .
. 5 .|1 . 9|. 6 7
. . .|7 2 .|1 5 .

One finned X-Wing is all that I find. Maybe it can be combined with the Empty Rectangle.

Code: Select all
     b4  -  138   Naked  Triple
 r1      -  234   Naked  Triple
 r3  b1  -  2     Locked Candidate 1
 r3  b2  -  8     Locked Candidate 1
   c2b4  -  8     Locked Candidate 1
   c7    -  2348  Naked  Quad
   c9b3  -  1     Locked Candidate 1
   c7b9  -  2     Locked Candidate 2
 r1c8    <> 3     XY-Wing  [r7c4]+[r1c4],[r7c8]
   c9b3  -  3     Locked Candidate 1
 r7  b9  -  3     Locked Candidate 1
 r3c2    <> 1     XY-Wing  [r8c3]+[r2c3],[r7c2]
 r3c1    <> 56    UR Type 1
     b1  -  14    Naked  Pair
   c61   -  4     finned X-Wing
 r9c9    <> 4     Empty Rectangle
 r7c7    <> 8     XYZ-Wing [r7c9]+[r7c4],[r9c9]
 r7c8    <> 8     XYZ-Wing [r7c9]+[r7c4],[r9c9]
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Postby wapati » Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:49 pm

Code: Select all
. . . | . 2 4 | . 9 .
. . 6 | 8 . . | 3 . .
. 7 . | . . . | . . .
---------------------
. . . | . 3 9 | 8 . .
. 9 4 | 5 . 8 | 1 2 .
. . 8 | 4 1 . | . . .
---------------------
. . . | . . . | . 6 .
. . 5 | . . 3 | 4 . .
. 6 . | 7 5 . | . . .


Swordfish, and several smaller...:)
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Postby wapati » Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:51 pm

Think fins, SE thinks they are chains. (swords, maybe a jelly?)

Code: Select all
6 . .|. . .|. . 4
9 8 .|. 2 .|. 1 5
. . .|8 . 6|. . .
-----+-----+-----
. . .|3 . 7|. . .
2 5 .|. 9 .|. 6 8
. . .|2 . 8|. . .
-----+-----+-----
5 3 .|. . .|. 4 2
. . 6|. . .|9 . .
. 7 .|. . .|. 8 .
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Postby wapati » Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:57 pm

SQ sees swordfish, one each of the sashimi and finned types.
SE sees chains.

I see lots of small stuff and the swords also.

Code: Select all
3 . . | . . . | . . 1
. 9 . | 4 . 1 | . 6 .
. 1 4 | . . . | 8 9 .
---------------------
. . 3 | . . . | 4 . .
. 5 8 | 9 . 4 | 3 7 .
7 . . | . 3 . | . . 8
---------------------
4 8 . | 6 . 5 | . 3 7
. 7 . | 8 . 3 | . 2 .
. . . | . 7 . | . . .
wapati
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Postby wapati » Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:41 pm

There is a robust Jellyfish in this puzzle, as well as many smaller patterns.

Code: Select all
. . 3 | . . . | . . 1
. 9 4 | . . . | . . .
. 7 . | 2 . 4 | 9 3 .
---------------------
. . . | . 3 . | 8 . 7
. 2 . | 4 . 8 | . 9 .
3 . 6 | . 9 . | . . .
---------------------
. 4 2 | 3 . 7 | . 8 .
. . . | . . . | 5 7 .
7 . . | . . . | 4 . .
wapati
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Postby daj95376 » Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:56 pm

wapati wrote:There is a robust Jellyfish in this puzzle, as well as many smaller patterns.

Code: Select all
# after: SSTS, Jellyfish, and XYZ-Wing
# guardian cells (#) prevent invalid pattern r235\c15 (*)
# => [r2c1]<>1 and [r3c5]<>1
#
# also: Sashimi X-Wing c76\r67 => [r7c5]<>1
 *-----------------------------------*
 |  .  .  .  |  .  .  .  |  .  .  1  |
 | *1- .  .  | #1 *1  .  |  .  .  .  |
 | *1  . #1  |  . *1- .  |  .  .  .  |
 |-----------+-----------+-----------|
 |  .  1  .  |  1  .  .  |  .  1  .  |
 | *1  .  .  |  . *1  .  |  .  .  .  |
 |  .  .  .  |  .  . @1  | @1  1  .  |
 |-----------+-----------+-----------|
 |  1  .  .  |  .  1- .  | @1  .  .  |
 |  .  .  1  |  1  . @1  |  .  .  .  |
 |  .  1  1  |  1  . @1  |  .  1  .  |
 *-----------------------------------*

The first pattern is two overlapping finned X-Wings where one of the fin cells must be true.
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