Dephased waves 8.3

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Dephased waves 8.3

Postby denis_berthier » Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:19 am

This dephased waves patten (a wave in each floor) could also be described as an inclined 8 with stretched arms.

Code: Select all
 . . X X . . . . X
 . X . . X . . X .
 X . . . . X X . .
 X . . . . X X . .
 . X . . X . . X .
 . . X X . . . . X
 . . X X . . . . X
 . X . . X . . X .
 X . . . . X X . .



Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+
! . . 6 ! 9 . . ! . . 2 !
! . 8 . ! . 4 . ! . 9 . !
! 3 . . ! . . 8 ! 4 . . !
+-------+-------+-------+
! 1 . . ! . . 2 ! 6 . . !
! . 4 . ! . 3 . ! . 1 . !
! . . 5 ! 8 . . ! . . 4 !
+-------+-------+-------+
! . . 7 ! 3 . . ! . . 5 !
! . 2 . ! . 7 . ! . 6 . !
! 6 . . ! . . 9 ! 1 . . !
+-------+-------+-------+

..69....2.8..4..9.3....84..1....26...4..3..1...58....4..73....5.2..7..6.6....91.. #  2424 FNBTHWXY C27.m/S4.da
27 givens, SER 8.3
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Re: Dephased waves 8.3

Postby JPF » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:57 am

Interesting pattern for the Patterns Game.
After a quick search:
Code: Select all
..12....3.4..3..2.3....56..1....78...9..5..1...41....6..95....7.8..9..6.4....39..   ED =10.6/10.6/9.8

and for SER=8.3
Code: Select all
..12....3.2..3..4.5....46..1....37...5..6..8...71....4..23....8.1..9..7.7....29..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.2..4..5.3....64..7....48...3..8..9...85....6..34....1.1..2..7.2....19..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.3..1..4.4....51..2....63...7..2..8...45....2..96....8.8..5..6.1....85..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.3..4..5.2....51..6....43...2..7..6...86....5..24....7.1..9..8.8....76..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.3..4..5.2....64..6....27...5..8..6...36....9..97....1.1..2..7.3....18..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.3..4..5.2....64..7....58...8..6..7...97....6..86....7.1..2..9.9....13..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.3..4..5.6....57..7....48...4..7..6...86....7..94....2.1..9..8.8....13..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.3..4..5.6....57..7....48...4..7..9...89....7..64....2.1..6..8.8....13..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.3..4..5.6....78..8....49...6..2..8...48....2..64....5.1..6..7.9....23..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..1..5.2....41..1....67...6..5..8...49....6..28....7.7..2..6.4....73..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..1..5.2....41..3....65...2..7..3...74....6..28....9.9..4..6.8....73..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..1..5.2....41..3....67...2..4..8...81....6..24....9.3..5..6.9....38..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..1..5.2....41..6....75...2..8..3...54....8..26....9.6..9..8.7....83..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..1..5.2....41..6....75...2..8..3...84....7..29....6.1..4..7.9....83..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..1..5.2....41..6....75...2..8..3...84....9..26....7.1..4..9.9....83..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..1..5.2....61..7....54...2..6..3...47....1..23....5.5..8..9.8....93..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..1..5.6....41..1....78...6..5..3...94....7..69....8.8..3..9.9....63..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..1..5.6....41..1....78...7..5..3...43....7..69....8.8..6..7.9....83..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..1..5.6....41..7....85...2..3..9...94....8..67....5.1..4..2.2....93..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..3..1.5....16..6....34...7..8..6...96....1..53....7.9..5..2.7....28..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..3..5.3....56..4....78...6..5..4...84....9..25....6.9..2..1.1....32..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..1.3....16..1....54...3..4..7...47....8..35....2.9..8..6.5....98..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..1.5....67..4....18...8..6..7...75....6..43....7.2..9..3.3....24..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..1.6....17..7....48...9..8..7...67....1..58....6.6..2..8.9....52..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..1.6....17..7....53...1..8..7...67....9..25....6.6..9..3.5....49..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..1.6....17..8....52...6..2..8...43....6..65....7.7..1..9.5....74..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..1.6....37..7....54...6..8..7...97....8..65....2.2..6..3.5....28..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..1.6....37..7....58...6..8..7...87....2..65....9.8..6..3.5....94..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..1.6....47..1....53...6..3..8...96....1..45....7.7..9..3.5....72..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..2.2....46..7....53...2..7..5...48....7..85....9.6..8..1.4....78..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..2.2....61..4....37...8..6..3...29....5..56....9.9..7..6.8....95..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..2.2....65..4....72...8..9..4...74....5..86....9.9..8..6.6....98..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..2.6....35..1....52...6..7..1...81....6..45....2.9..4..8.8....94..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..2.6....35..4....52...6..7..4...84....9..65....2.1..9..7.8....16..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..6.2....45..1....73...2..8..7...74....9..25....8.1..7..3.8....91..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..6.2....45..1....78...2..1..9...94....7..28....6.1..4..7.9....63..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..6.6....35..4....78...1..3..4...74....6..23....5.9..2..7.8....92..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..6.6....75..4....31...8..7..3...65....8..97....2.2..9..7.8....29..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..6.7....38..8....59...1..7..8...98....4..75....2.2..9..3.5....24..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..6.7....48..1....96...6..2..3...38....1..94....6.1..8..5.4....73..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..6.7....68..9....54...7..2..9...49....6..75....1.1..8..5.4....13..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3
..12....3.4..5..6.7....85..1....59...7..3..1...97....6..75....8.2..8..9.9....24..   ED =8.3/8.3/8.3


JPF
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Re: Dephased waves 8.3

Postby m_b_metcalf » Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:10 pm

JPF wrote:Interesting pattern for the Patterns Game.
After a quick search:
Code: Select all
..12....3.4..3..2.3....56..1....78...9..5..1...41....6..95....7.8..9..6.4....39..   ED =10.6/10.6/9.8


Also after a quick search, and found in Patterns Game 16, its isomorph:
Code: Select all
100200300040050010006001007600800700080060090004002006400900100090020070005003009 # 141  10.6/10.6/9.8 - JPF


Regards,

Mike
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Re: Dephased waves 8.3

Postby JPF » Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:44 pm

:idea: :D
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Re: Dephased waves 8.3

Postby denis_berthier » Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:57 am

I have the list of patterns studies in the Patterns Game, but then how to use it?
Is there some program to check a pattern against it?
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Re: Dephased waves 8.3

Postby yzfwsf » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:47 am

Compare the minimal lexicographical representation for each pattern. "gsf.exe" should work, but I have never used this feature.
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Re: Dephased waves 8.3

Postby m_b_metcalf » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:37 am

denis_berthier wrote:I have the list of patterns studies in the Patterns Game, but then how to use it?
Is there some program to check a pattern against it?

In the patterns file provided by g.r.emlin, the second column contains the patterns as played and it's simple to test any other pattern against them. However, as mentioned, a complete check must use the first column with its minimal lexicographical representations.

In any case, even if Game 16 hadn't been played, your wave pattern wouldn't be accepted by g.r.emlin, who would tell you that by interchanging rows 1 and 3, and rows 7 and 9, and columns 4 and 6, you achieve not only rotational symmetry, but also diagonal and anti-diagonal symmetry.

Smart guy, our g.r.emlin!

Regards,

Mike
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Re: Dephased waves 8.3

Postby denis_berthier » Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:39 pm

My purpose was not to propose this puzzle/pattern to the Patterns Game. When I propose a "new" pattern, I prefer being able to check if it's really new or not and to give the proper credit if not.
Is there a software that transforms a puzzle to the same minimal lexicographical representation as in the Patterns Game?
When I propose a puzzle in this section, I consider mainly its visual pattern, regardless of what its morphs can look like.


For players: there's an oddagon to be found.
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Re: Dephased waves 8.3

Postby mith » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:02 pm

A slight morph of this pattern was used here: a-rather-silly-fish-thermo-t38336.html

(It is, relatively speaking, pretty easy to use this pattern to allow for swordfish on all 9 digits at the start, though I'm pretty certain it won't be unique without more information. I used a short thermo here to disambiguate, since keeping it a classic and adding digits would necessarily break one of the swordfish.)
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Re: Dephased waves 8.3

Postby denis_berthier » Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:35 am

mith wrote:A slight morph of this pattern was used here: a-rather-silly-fish-thermo-t38336.html
(It is, relatively speaking, pretty easy to use this pattern to allow for swordfish on all 9 digits at the start, though I'm pretty certain it won't be unique without more information. I used a short thermo here to disambiguate, since keeping it a classic and adding digits would necessarily break one of the swordfish.)


Hi Mith,
You're right it's a morph.
The puzzle here was chosen among 1000 minimal puzzles with the same pattern (using gsf's program).
But I can't tell about the existence of unique puzzles if you further restrict the pattern (by fixing some digits, I guess) so as to have 9 ≠ swordfish at the start.
I just realise: your thermofish pattern looks like a fish on a wave.
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Re: Dephased waves 8.3

Postby mith » Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:11 pm

I haven't explored the pattern very thoroughly. I put together this particular example manually (took about five attempts, IIRC, to find one that didn't solve immediately with singles), with the idea that each "aligned" 3x3 in the givens (for example: r169c349) contains three digits twice each and three digits once each. This forces swordfish in the rows and columns aligned with the 3x3 where the digit does not appear (for example, 1 does not appear in r169c349, and the three given 1s cause a swordfish in r169/c158 and in c349/r268). I'm pretty confident you can never get a unique puzzle constructing it this way, just from the symmetries in the givens and eliminations, but I would be happy to be proven wrong. :)
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Re: Dephased waves 8.3

Postby coloin » Sat Jan 30, 2021 7:38 am

If I am not mistaken .., The "Dephased wave" pattern is essentially the same as the "Fish on wave" pattern

Code: Select all
+---+---+---+
|..6|..9|..2|
|.8.|.4.|.9.|
|3..|8..|4..|
+---+---+---+
|..5|..8|..4|
|.4.|.3.|.1.|
|1..|2..|6..|
+---+---+---+
|..7|..3|..5|
|.2.|.7.|.6.|
|6..|9..|1..|
+---+---+---+
Morphed version of the 8.3
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Re: Dephased waves 8.3

Postby denis_berthier » Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:23 am

coloin wrote:If I am not mistaken .., The "Dephased wave" pattern is essentially the same as the "Fish on wave" pattern

Code: Select all
+---+---+---+
|..6|..9|..2|
|.8.|.4.|.9.|
|3..|8..|4..|
+---+---+---+
|..5|..8|..4|
|.4.|.3.|.1.|
|1..|2..|6..|
+---+---+---+
|..7|..3|..5|
|.2.|.7.|.6.|
|6..|9..|1..|
+---+---+---+
Morphed version of the 8.3


Yes, that's what Mith noticed also.
Unfortunately, I know of no available program to put a pattern in minlex form (and I'm not eager to re-invent the wheel in writing one myself) so as to compare with the list of patterns already used in the Patterns Game.

Anyway, the patterns I choose in this section are mostly for their visual aspect (regardless of possible morphs) and the puzzles I choose are because they have some special properties. I mostly choose patterns with some symmetry because I'm interested in puzzles that are in what I've called the "grey zone": SER 9.1-9.6. For less advanced players, I also propose simpler puzzles with the same pattern.

I appreciate when someone notices that the puzzles belong to some already know pattern.
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Re: Dephased waves 8.3

Postby coloin » Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:30 pm

denis_berthier wrote:Unfortunately, I know of no available program to put a pattern in minlex form .....

gsf did though , Cheers ! Where would we be without Glenn !
Code: Select all
sudoku-64 -qFN -f%#0c   prints puzzle in minlexgrid                                         
sudoku-64 -f%#xc   prints minlex pattern  [as x]                                     
sudoku-64 -f%#Xc   prints original puzzle in min lex pattern                         
sudoku-64 -f%#Pc   prints a min lex puzzle with pattern unchanged                     
sudoku-64 -f%#mc   prints actual min lex puzzle                                             
                                                                                     
sudoku-64 -f%#Xc   puzz1 > puzz2   [prints original puzzle in min lex pattern]       
sudoku-64 -f%#Pc   puzz2 > puzz3   [prints min lex puzzle with the minlex pattern]      [ min lex puzzle doesnt always have the min lex pattern]                                                                                 
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Re: Dephased waves 8.3

Postby denis_berthier » Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:48 am

coloin wrote:
denis_berthier wrote:Unfortunately, I know of no available program to put a pattern in minlex form .....

gsf did though , Cheers ! Where would we be without Glenn !
Code: Select all
sudoku-64 -qFN -f%#0c   prints puzzle in minlexgrid                                         
sudoku-64 -f%#xc   prints minlex pattern  [as x]                                     
sudoku-64 -f%#Xc   prints original puzzle in min lex pattern                         
sudoku-64 -f%#Pc   prints a min lex puzzle with pattern unchanged                     
sudoku-64 -f%#mc   prints actual min lex puzzle                                             
                                                                                     
sudoku-64 -f%#Xc   puzz1 > puzz2   [prints original puzzle in min lex pattern]       
sudoku-64 -f%#Pc   puzz2 > puzz3   [prints min lex puzzle with the minlex pattern]      [ min lex puzzle doesnt always have the min lex pattern]                                                                                 

Hi Coloin, thanks.
However, I'm still unable to find the proper options for obtaining a minlex form for a given pattern, something like:
sudoku-64 <options> --XX----X-X--X--X-X----XX--X----XX---X--X--X---XX----XX----XX---X--X--X---XX----

"--XX----X-X--X--X-X----XX--X----XX---X--X--X---XX----XX----XX---X--X--X---XX----" is what I use to obtain a list of puzzles for this pattern, so the problem shouldn't be there.
I tried with <options> = -f%#xc but it only gives me several illegible pages of possible options.
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