Commonness of various techniques

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

Postby daj95376 » Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:33 pm

999_Springs wrote:I tend to use my brain when solving puzzles rather than a solver.

And how do you expect to compare your results to anyone else's results?

The number of puzzles in your sample set is probably insufficient for any valid comparison.

It's extremely unlikely that your results will ever match a solver's results.
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Postby 999_Springs » Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:43 pm

(curses internet connection for not working properly for 3 days)

The point is that I want to see the approximate magnitude of the issues raised in the first post: whether it is only chance or some big difference in the way I solve my puzzles. Suppose I find 15 Y-wings compared to 4 locked candidates type 1: this almost certainly is some difference in the way I solve my puzzles, despite the small numbers.

Also: despite having found 23 turbot fish, I have found exactly 0 grouped turbot fish. I also haven't found many finned X-wings for some time. Is there any reason for this?
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Postby Steve48 » Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:22 am

daj95376 wrote:I don't know why this occurs in your case, but seeing the high count for Locked Candidate 1 gives me a good idea. Many Naked Triples coincide with Locked Candidate 1 patterns. My solver finds a Naked Triple when Simple Sudoku may pop out a stream of Locked Candidate 1 patterns. Hierarchy of techniques is everything sometimes!!!


I think hierarchy is very important most of the time. This is especially true when you're talking about hidden and naked groupings, since one implies the other. If, for example, you have 6 unassigned cells in a group, then the presence of a hidden pair in 2 of the cells implies a naked quad in the other 4. If you find the hidden pair first and use its eliminations, then the naked quad won't give you any eliminations, and your solver may not report it.

Sorry if this is old hat. I'm new around here.
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Postby 999_Springs » Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:27 pm

Steve48 wrote:If you find the hidden pair first and use its eliminations, then the naked quad won't give you any eliminations

I don't know of any solver, human, alien or electronic, who puts hidden pairs after naked quads.
I see your point with more advanced techniques, as there are many different hierarchies of techniques. But I do not really follow a strict hierarchy with the more advanced and rarer techniques: I just note what I see first. It saves me time.

Code: Select all
Locked candidates type 1: 125

Turbot fish: 27

Hidden pair: 26
Naked pair: 26
 
Locked candidates type 2: 15

X-wing: 14

3 strong links: 6

XY-chain: 5

Singles forcing chain: 4

Swordfish: 3
XY-wing: 3
Naked triple: 3 

Finned X-wing: 2

Naked quad: 1
Y-wing: 1
Nishio: 1
Hidden triple: 1
ALS xz: 1
Bidirectional cycle: 1

Hidden quad: 0
Jellyfish: 0
4 strong links, finned swordfish, xyz-wing, Sue de Coq, etc...... and everything else: ZERO!!!


Nowadays I find myself spending more time getting stuck on puzzles than solving them.
When I was solving today's Times Fiendish I didn't see when column 6 had eight numbers in it until 3 minutes later I started putting in candidates. ARGH!!!
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Postby re'born » Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:32 pm

999_Springs wrote:
Steve48 wrote:If you find the hidden pair first and use its eliminations, then the naked quad won't give you any eliminations

I don't know of any solver, human, alien or electronic, who puts hidden pairs after naked quads.

I do.:)
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Postby udosuk » Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:51 pm

re'born wrote:
999_Springs wrote:
Steve48 wrote:If you find the hidden pair first and use its eliminations, then the naked quad won't give you any eliminations

I don't know of any solver, human, alien or electronic, who puts hidden pairs after naked quads.

I do.:)

Yes, Simple Sudoku ranks naked quads before hidden pairs. Probably because it's a highly pencilmark-oriented software (although you do have the option to turn off the pencilmarks). That brings me a question: does anyone know of a puzzle which when loaded to Simple Sudoku and asked it to solve itself using the F11 key would actually bring up a "hidden quad" move? Note that it's dual subset must be a "naked quint" otherwise the naked dual subset will be used instead. Anyone?:?:
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Postby Ruud » Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:22 pm

udosuk wrote:does anyone know of a puzzle which when loaded to Simple Sudoku and asked it to solve itself using the F11 key would actually bring up a "hidden quad" move? Note that it's dual subset must be a "naked quint" otherwise the naked dual subset will be used instead. Anyone?


There is this puzzle with a hidden quad in my benchmark list:

Code: Select all
. . .|. . 5|. . 4
. . .|. . .|9 1 .
. . .|9 . .|. 3 8
-----+-----+-----
. . .|3 . 4|5 . 7
. 7 .|. 8 .|. 6 .
8 . 3|5 . 2|. . .
-----+-----+-----
4 9 .|. . 3|. . .
. 2 5|. . .|. . .
6 . .|7 . .|. . .

When it reaches the point where the Hidden Quad could be made, Simple Sudoku uses Simple Colors instead.

In these puzzles, SS prefers an XY-Wing:
400207003000613000007000600790000048060000090830000065002000800000974000600102004
040069752000000009000520004000000600601807900059000030230000000806000000007000100

But here is the one you wanted:
Code: Select all
. 5 3|1 . .|. . 4
. 6 .|. . 5|. . 8
. . 8|2 . .|. . 3
-----+-----+-----
. . .|. . .|. . .
. 2 5|8 . .|. 9 .
7 . .|. . 1|. 6 .
-----+-----+-----
. 3 2|. . .|. . .
. . 4|7 8 .|. . 6
. . .|. . .|. 8 1

However, it does a Multi-Colors move before the hidden quad.

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Postby gsf » Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:32 pm

Ruud wrote:But here is the one you wanted:
Code: Select all
. 5 3|1 . .|. . 4
. 6 .|. . 5|. . 8
. . 8|2 . .|. . 3
-----+-----+-----
. . .|. . .|. . .
. 2 5|8 . .|. 9 .
7 . .|. . 1|. 6 .
-----+-----+-----
. 3 2|. . .|. . .
. . 4|7 8 .|. . 6
. . .|. . .|. 8 1

However, it does a Multi-Colors move before the hidden quad.

thanks for that grid, it uncovered a mistake in my solver's -qss (simple sudoku) emulation order
do you have one that exposes the ss hidden triple / coloring order?
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Postby Ruud » Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:12 pm

In this puzzle:

Code: Select all
. 5 1|. . .|. . .
. 4 3|7 1 2|. . .
. 2 .|. . 9|. . .
-----+-----+-----
. . .|6 . .|. 3 8
. . .|. . .|7 . .
. . 9|. . 8|. . .
-----+-----+-----
. 3 2|4 . 1|9 . .
. . .|. . .|. . 5
. . .|8 . .|1 6 2


SS does 2 Simple Colors moves and a Multi-Colors move instead of the hidden triple.


In this puzzle:

Code: Select all
. . 7|6 . 2|8 . .
. 1 4|8 . 9|7 2 .
. . .|. . .|. . .
-----+-----+-----
. 6 2|3 . 7|1 5 .
. . .|. . .|. . .
. 8 3|4 . 1|2 7 .
-----+-----+-----
. . .|. . .|. . .
. 4 6|2 . 3|5 1 .
. . 1|7 . 5|3 . .


SS does a Swordfish before a hidden triple.
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Postby udosuk » Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:59 am

Wow, I guess SS despises all things hidden, and digs naked stuffs (similar to my taste:D ).

Thanks for finding all the puzzles Ruud.:)
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"hidden" quartet in Simple Sudoku

Postby Pat » Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:11 pm

udosuk wrote:does anyone know of a puzzle which when loaded to Simple Sudoku and asked it to solve itself using the F11 key would actually bring up a "hidden quad" move?



Nicolas Juillerat [ Sudoku Explainer ] wrote:
      [ 28 clues ]
Code: Select all
 . . 9 | . 2 . | 4 8 .
 6 . . | . . 8 | 9 . .
 8 2 . | . 9 . | . . 1
-------+-------+------
 . 9 . | . . . | . . .
 7 . 8 | . . . | 1 . 2
 . . . | . . . | . 7 .
-------+-------+------
 9 . . | . 7 . | . 6 5
 . . 6 | 1 . . | . . 9
 . 5 2 | . 6 . | 8 . .


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re: "hidden" quartet in Simple Sudoku

Postby Pat » Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:20 pm

interestingly, angusj's software uses "Multiple Colors" for this puzzle --
angusj (2005.Aug.1) wrote:
      [ 26 clues ]
Code: Select all
 5 . 2 | 6 . . | 7 . .
 . . . | 9 . . | . 1 .
 . . . | . . . | 3 8 5
-------+-------+------
 . . 4 | . 9 6 | 1 . .
 . . . | . . . | . . .
 . . 5 | 2 7 . | 9 . .
-------+-------+------
 8 3 7 | . . . | . . .
 . 6 . | . . 9 | . . .
 . . 9 | . . 8 | 2 . 3


-- which was his own example of a "hidden" quartet

~ Pat
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Re: re: "hidden" quartet in Simple Sudoku

Postby ronk » Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:14 pm

Pat wrote:interestingly, angusj's software[/url] uses "Multiple Colors" for this puzzle --
[...]
-- which was his own example of a "hidden" quartet

angusj's software has applied Colors and MultiColors before Hidden Quads since at least Mar 2006.
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Postby daj95376 » Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:00 pm

Withdrawn. I misunderstood.
Last edited by daj95376 on Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby 999_Springs » Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:46 pm

Am I now the only one here who finds hidden subsets almost as much as naked subsets?

Two years ago when I was learning Su-Doku I taught myself the hidden pair before the naked pair. Could it be to do with this?
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