Can this be done with no trail and error?

Post the puzzle or solving technique that's causing you trouble and someone will help

Thanks Tso

Postby villagegreen » Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:01 am

Thanks, tso, I can follow that explanation. I guess I've always resisted going down those pathways because it seemed like guessing, i.e. if I plug this in here and here and here, then this is what happens. For months I've been solving them without having to go down that road. But thank you for the explanation, very clear.
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Postby tarek » Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:08 am

tso wrote:I have to side with Kent here. There are simply too many arbitrary and hard to tell apart names for tactics. It's one thing if the logic is difficult, but another if the terminology and symbology is opaque. It's supposed to make it *easier* for us, not make as special club of in-the-know-it-alls. It's even more difficult since you called it a finned x-wing though it isn't -- it's another "one step higher" variation. Confusing.


I do agree that it might be confusing. that is why I asked the reader -on that specific occasion- , to return to the filet-o-fish thread. I did not ask him to do that before.

For some time now, I use the words (Finned ....), for both the normal & the sashimi variation.....I only use (almost & sashimi) only when asked to explain that pattern & then I always add "refer to filet-o-fish thread".

I personally dislike the use of the words (Sashimi, & filet-o-fish), I use them because these terms were used by the person who first described these patterns, I would hope that the use of these would be phased out in favour of the (Finned fish) term.

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Postby tarek » Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:13 am

tso wrote:
tarek wrote:I dislike this type of colouring elimination,
Why?
Because it is an elimination by contradiction

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Postby tso » Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:14 am

Kent wrote:Tso i really need help on susser.I posted this but no one answered me.I just wanna know 1 thing.In susser, how do u make pencilmark when u are tyring to solve a puzzle?? I can only insert a candidate but not pencilmarking the possible candidatees.I read the manul but it's not stated.Would really appreaciate it if u could tell me.Anyway, simple sudoku can't pencilmark the candidates too now that i relise it.Thanks


It's hard to understand what you are asking, but...

Susser -- Pencilmarking is automatic. Click on a cell to add or remove a candidate. Other pencilmarks update accordingly. From the OPTIONS menu you may set unsolved cells to have ALL possiblities (and remove them manually) or to have NO possibilities (and add them manually). You may choose "Marquis de Sade Manual Masochism Mode" then Susser will no longer make candidate updates for you.

All this is clearly spelled out in the manual, page 29.

You can write the Mad Overlord directly about Susser. The email address is built into the program and on the website.


Simple Sudoku allows you to show or not show candidates, but you cannot set it to add candidates manually. It automatically updates the candidates and allows you to remove them manually.

Questions and suggestions regarding Simple Sudoku can be posted on the Sudoku Programmer's site.


SadMan Sudoku gives you a choice of automating pencilmarks -- you can start with them all blank and add them just like using pencil and paper if you chose.
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Postby tso » Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:34 am

tarek wrote:
tso wrote:
tarek wrote:I dislike this type of colouring elimination,
Why?
Because it is an elimination by contradiction

Tarek


I'm suprised and confused that you say this. First, there are no contradictions when using coloring as a tactic. One must make an assumption first in order to have a contradiction -- but coloring makes no assumptions! For example:

Code: Select all
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
 | 4     79    138   | 2     1378  1389  | 6     58    57    |
 |+16    5     168   | 4    x178   189   | 789   3     2     |
 | 29    279   38    | 6     5     389   | 789   4     1     |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 5     8     4     | 3     2     7     | 1     6     9     |
 | 69    1     2     | 89    4     68    | 5     7     3     |
 | 3     69    7     | 1     69    5     | 4     2     8     |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 8     4     56    | 579   69    2     | 3     1     567   |
 | 7     3    +156   | 58   -18    4     | 2     9     56    |
 |-126   26    9     | 57    13    136   | 78    58    4     |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*


By coloring the ONE's these four cells, no assumption (or conclusion) is make about the value of any of these four cells -- only that those with PLUS and MINUS will have opposite states -- and therefore any cell that can see a cell of each color can be excluded. If you think of this simple tactic as somehow involving a contradiction, how do you justify using an xy-wing, or worse an xy-chain?

Perhaps you are lumping Nishio in with Coloring? Nishio DOES make an assumption and REQUIRES finding a contradiction. In this case, Nishio would start by assuming that r2c5 were 1 and trying to place the rest of the 1s -- which would end in a contradiction.
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Postby tarek » Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:58 am

tso wrote:
tarek wrote:
tso wrote:
tarek wrote:I dislike this type of colouring elimination,
Why?
Because it is an elimination by contradiction
I'm suprised and confused that you say this. First, there are no contradictions when using coloring as a tactic. One must make an assumption first in order to have a contradiction ....

I didn't say that I disliked colouring, I said I disliked THIS type of colouring...
Code: Select all
*-----------------------------------------------*
|A458  9    1   | 7   A58   6   | 458  3    2   |
| 6    58   2   | 4    1    3   | 7    9    58  |
| 3    458  7   | 9    2   a58  | 458  1    6   |
|---------------+---------------+---------------|
|a58   3    4   | 2    7   A58  | 1    6    9   |
| 2    6    9   | 1    3    4   | 58   7    58  |
| 1    7   A58  | 6   a58   9   | 3    2    4   |
|---------------+---------------+---------------|
| 9    458  568 | 3    46   7   | 2    458  1   |
| 45   2    3   | 8    9    1   | 6    45   7   |
| 7    1    68  | 5    46   2   | 9    48   3   |
*-----------------------------------------------*
Eliminating 8 From r1c1,r1c5,r4c6,r6c3 (Simpe Couloring)

saying that you can't have (2 greens/2 '+'s/2 Trues.....) in a sector IMO is another way of saying this is a contradiction.......

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Can this be done with no trail and error

Postby Cec » Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:09 am

Kent wrote:Cec
"...Please don't get me wrong.Because Tarek said * forms an X wing.So I just wanted to clarify that it doesn't form an X-wing

Kent,
Gee, a lot of responses since I finished late last night but, no, I didn't think at all that you were trying to change the rules of x-wing but merely queried your interpretation as to what Tarek said in his earlier post as again shown in your reply to me.
Kent wrote:Cec
"... Because Tarek said * forms an X wing.So I just wanted to clarify that it doesn't form an X-wing ..."

Again, Tarek didn't say "forms an x-wing" - he referred to a "finned x-wing" which is a different pattern. I hope this clarifies why I queried your reply.

I found this a most interesting thread and the responses were most helpful - thanks to all. It's even all the more interesting considering villagegreen's initial request ("Non Pappocom/ "Diabolical 3-10-60" thread) was:
villagegreen wrote:No guessing! I want to know if this can be solved without trial and error.

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Postby Kent » Sun Mar 12, 2006 5:58 am

Tso
Susser -- Pencilmarking is automatic. Click on a cell to add or remove a candidate. Other pencilmarks update accordingly. From the OPTIONS menu you may set unsolved cells to have ALL possiblities (and remove them manually) or to have NO possibilities (and add them manually).


I couln't do the pencilmakring thing in susser.I mean I can't add possible candidates in the box.It will just fill 1 candidate for the cell.
Example
I can't add candidates like example 4,5 and 8 in r1c1 like below.I will just fill in a candidate only and it assumes that's your answer


Code: Select all
*-----------------------------------------------*
|A458  9    1   | 7   A58   6   | 458  3    2   |
| 6    58   2   | 4    1    3   | 7    9    58  |
| 3    458  7   | 9    2   a58  | 458  1    6   |
|---------------+---------------+---------------|
|a58   3    4   | 2    7   A58  | 1    6    9   |
| 2    6    9   | 1    3    4   | 58   7    58  |
| 1    7   A58  | 6   a58   9   | 3    2    4   |
|---------------+---------------+---------------|
| 9    458  568 | 3    46   7   | 2    458  1   |
| 45   2    3   | 8    9    1   | 6    45   7   |
| 7    1    68  | 5    46   2   | 9    48   3   |
*-----------------------------------------------*
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Can this be done with no trail and error

Postby Cec » Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:46 am

Kent wrote:I can't add candidates like example 4,5 and 8 in r1c1 like below.I will just fill in a candidate only and it assumes that's your answer."

Kent,
I don't have Susser but I suspect there is an option, similar to Simple Sudoku, which allows the candidates to be shown (automatically) or not shown. Assuming Susser has a "help" menu try finding the "candidate on/off button" or whatever they call it.
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Postby Kent » Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:02 am

Cec I dont think they have it.I can off the candidates but how do i add them into the cells.thats the problem.
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Can this be done with no trail and error

Postby Cec » Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:51 am

Kent wrote:"..I can off the candidates but how do i add them into the cells.thats the problem."

Kent, unless I'm mistaken, interpreting your above post suggests candidates are initially shown on your PC screen for you to be able to remove them. I'm somewhat confused - why would you want to add candidates to the cells? Heh! it's hard enough to remove them without wanting to add more!:) The SS program has an "undo/redo option to retrace your steps which automatically replaces candidates if they were previously removed. Not having the Susser myself I can't help you - hopefully someone will come to your rescue:)
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Postby GreenLantern » Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:38 am

Kent,

You might want to also check out Random Sudoku at http://www.paulspages.co.uk/sudoku/index.htm

This sudoku helper application will allow you to choose between manual or automatic candidate numbering, import/export puzzles in ascii, resize the grid, and lots of other helpful features.
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Can this be done with no trail and error

Postby Cec » Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:02 pm

Kent,
OOps! My mind must have been elsewhere in speculating how the Susser program should work to fix your pencilmarking problems. I overlooked tso's above post where he refers to the functions of this program which could relate to your problem. I realize you have sited tso's post but it might be worth you trying the functions again which are mentioned.
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Postby tso » Sun Mar 12, 2006 4:43 pm

Kent,

First, this forum is the place to ask about particular puzzles, not about software. Scroll down on the main forum page -- you'll see the appropriate place to discuss software.

Second, I don't know what to say beyond what I've already said. I promise you that Susser will do what I said it does. We're all glad to answer most of your questions, but it seems as if you don't always read the answers and follow the suggestions before asking another half a dozen questions going over the same asked-and-answered areas. I half expect you to ask us to help find your house keys.

Susser isn't as easy to use and master as most other helper/solvers -- but it has far more options, bells and whistles. If you're having difficulty with Susser:

a) Make sure you have the most recent version. (2.5.2 as of this post)
b) RTFM* -- carefully 2 or 3 times.
c) Experiment with the menus and tools. You can't break it.
d) RTFM again.
e) Go through the copious selection of sample puzzles.
f) See (b) and (d) above.
g) If you still can't figure something out -- email the author, who will be overjoyed to help you. The email address is on the website and built in the program. The answers you get from the author will always be better than anything we can tell you.

If you do this, not only will you become an expert at Susser, you will probably learn quite a few advanced tactics that you wouldn't have otherwise.


*RTFM = Read The Fantastic Manual
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Postby MCC » Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:14 pm

tarek wrote:...saying that you can't have (2 greens/2 '+'s/2 Trues.....) in a sector IMO is another way of saying this is a contradiction.......

Tarek


What are the rules of Sudoku:
There is really only one rule:

Fill in the grid so that
every row,
every column, and
every 3 x 3 box
contains the digits 1 through 9.

Surely this implies that you can't have two of a number in any group, so,saying:
tarek wrote:...you can't have (2 greens/2 '+'s/2 Trues.....) in a sector ...is a contradiction.......

Tarek

You imply that the basic rules are a contradiction.

Basically, simple colouring highlights conjugate numbers to help you impliment the rules of Sudoku.

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