The New Sudoku Players' Forum

[Pat]

How many SFs with singles do you need?
How many SFs with the rest of the techniques do you need?

to be pure IMO the 1st answer should be <= to the second answer

it will never be less

I posted a puzzle which failed point 7.2. before I modified it,
I think that puzzle needs less (More red herrings)

possibly it has fewer Swordfish available;
but it needs at least as many.

[tarek]

Ah yes, the total available was less (that's why it failed the old rule)....

Will keep an eye out for these exceptional cases

tarek

[tarek]

[Edit have since changed, so ignore this post]

Here the sum of all what has been posted.

Pat is advocating an Extra-Lenient category (only rules 1,4 & 5 apply).
Therfore I've collated the list as follows:

#Puzzle#ID#PatP/F#TarekP/F(Cat/Point)#Tarek_SF>=
2...9.....6...31....12...7...7....2.3.......8.8....4...4...86....27...1.....5...4#tarek001#P#P(L)#2
7...4.....5...13....62...7...7....2.9.......8.3....5...6...31....27...6.....5...4#tarek002#P#P(L)#2
9...6.....4...18....72...9...9....2.5.......3.6....4...7...81....29...7.....4...6#tarek003#P#P(L)#2
1...7.....4...31....89...6...6....9.2.......3.1....4...8...42....96...8.....5...6#tarek004#P#P(L)#2
8...6.....5...39....98...1...1....8.3.......7.7....4...4...73....81...9.....2...5#tarek005#P#P(L)#2
5...4.....4...13....97...5...5....7.2.......6.1....8...9...84....75...9.....1...8#tarek006#P#P(L)#2
....1.....2...34....56...7...71...6.8.......9.1...72...5...43....67...5.....2....#TTHsieh001#F#F(4)#0
....1.....2...34....56...7...73...6.8.......3.4...82...9...28....67...3.....9....#TTHsieh002#P#P(L)#1
5....36....9.7.....4.2....8..8.....2.3.....5.6.....1..3....6.4.....5.3....78....9#tarek007#P#P(L)#1
3....71....8.5.....2.8....6..6.....4.7.....3.1.....9..7....1.2.....3.7....56....8#tarek008#P#P(L)#1
3....94....6.5.....1.8....2..1.....8.8.....1.4.....7..5....4.3.....3.9....81....6#tarek009#P#P(L)#1
1....96....5.8.....8.2....7..4.....2.9.....6.6.....1..3....6.1.....5.9....27....5#tarek010#P#P(L)#1
9....85....4.3.....6.1....3..6.....1.1.....6.5.....2..7....5.9.....9.8....16....4#tarek011#P#P(L)#1
3....94....6.5.....2.8....1..1.....8.9.....3.4.....7..9....4.2.....3.9....81....6#tarek012#P#P(L)#1
6....18....3.5.....1.4....5..9.....4.2.....6.1.....7..7....8.2.....3.1....45....3#tarek013#P#P(L)#1
9....82....6.2.....5.3....1..4.....3.7.....5.2.....1..8....3.7.....9.8....35....6#tarek014#P#P(L)#1
4....61....8.9.....6.5....9..2.....5.7.....6.6.....3..3....1.7.....8.6....59....8#tarek015#P#P(L)#1
4....68....7.3.....1.5....9..4.....5.6.....4.8.....2..6....8.1.....4.6....39....7#tarek016#P#P(L)#1
4....69....5.3.....6.7....2..2.....7.5.....4.8.....1..1....7.6.....4.8....72....9#tarek017#P#P(L)#1
2....31....4.1.....6.8....4..7.....8.9.....2.1.....3..6....1.3.....2.5....84....9#tarek018#P#P(L)#1
7....64....5.2.....8.9....2..2.....8.9.....7.4.....6..3....4.1.....6.3....82....9#tarek019#P#P(L)#1
9....42....7.6.....3.1....6..5.....1.8.....9.3.....4..4....2.8.....7.3....16....7#tarek020#P#P(L)#1
5....61....9.8.....3.9....7..4.....8.9.....5.1.....3..6....1.3.....2.6....84....9#tarek021#P#P(L)#1
...324.....6...3...9.....5.2...9...66..4.3..14...5...8.2.....8...7...4.....712...#tarek022#P#P(L)#1
...528.....7...9...4.....3.9...1...85..3.6..72...4...1.9.....8...2...5.....869...#tarek023#P#P(L)#1
...197.....9...2...7.....8.9...1...57..5.2..86...3...4.5.....3...2...6.....875...#tarek024#P#P(L)#1
...345.....5...2...6.....7.2...6...75..4.1..99...2...1.2.....4...1...6.....896...#tarek025#P#P(L)#1
...562.....5...8...7.....1.8...7...12..6.9..44...8...9.8.....6...9...7.....347...#tarek026#P#P(L)#1
...629.....6...3...9.....1.9...5...24..9.8..77...4...3.1.....6...5...8.....261...#tarek027#P#P(L)#1
...742.....4...9...1.....3.3...8...52..6.9..39...3...1.3.....4...2...8.....816...#tarek028#P#P(L)#1
..123......4........5...632...7.2..87...4...11..3.9...523...9........5......618..#TTHsieh003#P#P(L)#1
1.....6.4.2..7..5.3...........14.....7..58.9....7.9...........3.5..9..2.4.6.....1#Eioru001#F#F(2)#0
9..4..7...6..3..5...1..8..42..8..1...3..4..7...7..9..55..6..2...2..8..9...6..1..3#tso001#P#F(3)#0
6....39....4.5.....8.2....7..5.....2.9.....6.3.....1..1....9.4.....1.3....25....8#tarek029#P#F(7.1)#0
7....29....8.1.....5.4....6..1.....4.4.....3.2.....5..5....3.9.....7.2....46....1#tarek030#P#F(3)#0

PatP/F: Pat's Extra Lenient (P: Pass F: Fail)
TarekP/F: Tarek's Categories (P: Pass F: Fail)
Cat: L:Lenient R:Rigorous
Point: Tarek's Categories reason for failure (Rule Point)
Tarek_SF>=: Tarek's Categories number of swordfish AT LEAST NEEDED to solve.


tarek

[Edit have since changed, so ignore this post]

[Pat]

hey tarek, i notice some of the puzzles failed rule 3 [ F(3) ] -- in my opinion, the "esthetic" rules are the least important -- i'd like to convince you to test them last -- would you indulge me in this too ??

Code: Select all

[ 2-3. "esthetic" rules -- moved to the end ]

///

8. Symmetric (I-VII)
9. Minimal



[Pat]

in the Topic "I Need Practice with X-Wing and Swordfish",
Morgoth (2007.Mar.26) posted a set of 10 Swordfish puzzles -- and 2 of them do qualify as pure Swordfish puzzles
( puzzles 4-5 in the Morgoth list )

36,5.3.....9.4...5.1.8.1.7.3.4.3.1...2.4...3.6.7.......8.7.9.....8...4.....3...5....,25, ,Morgoth (2007.Mar.26)
37,..1.7.....6...9.2.4.......3.1.8.2.9.......5...9...5.8...2.1.6.....2.7.5.3.8......,23, ,Morgoth (2007.Mar.26)

[tarek]

hey tarek, i notice some of the puzzles failed rule 3 [ F(3) ] -- in my opinion, the "esthetic" rules are the least important -- i'd like to convince you to test them last -- would you indulge me in this too ??

Code: Select all

[ 2-3. "esthetic" rules -- moved to the end ]

///

8. Symmetric (I-VII)
9. Minimal



That is a good idea....That shouldn't be a problem.....

I'll test....collate then update

tarek

[tarek]

[Edit: Rules have been updatet (Yet again), Please ignore this post]

I've changed the rules as per Pat's suggestion above.

Checking puzzles goes in sequence through the rules reporting the 1st error encountered. If no errors were encountered then it passes the category specified.

The rules have been re-organised so as to satisfy Pat's rules. (Rules 1-3 in the current rule list).

Anything that Fails rules 4-7 or that PASSES all rules should be considered in Pat's list.


#Puzzle#ID#TarekP/F(Cat/Point)#Tarek_SF>=
2...9.....6...31....12...7...7....2.3.......8.8....4...4...86....27...1.....5...4#tarek001#P(L)#2
7...4.....5...13....62...7...7....2.9.......8.3....5...6...31....27...6.....5...4#tarek002#P(L)#2
9...6.....4...18....72...9...9....2.5.......3.6....4...7...81....29...7.....4...6#tarek003#P(L)#2
1...7.....4...31....89...6...6....9.2.......3.1....4...8...42....96...8.....5...6#tarek004#P(L)#2
8...6.....5...39....98...1...1....8.3.......7.7....4...4...73....81...9.....2...5#tarek005#P(L)#2
5...4.....4...13....97...5...5....7.2.......6.1....8...9...84....75...9.....1...8#tarek006#P(L)#2
....1.....2...34....56...7...71...6.8.......9.1...72...5...43....67...5.....2....#TTHsieh001#F(2)#0
....1.....2...34....56...7...73...6.8.......3.4...82...9...28....67...3.....9....#TTHsieh002#P(L)#1
5....36....9.7.....4.2....8..8.....2.3.....5.6.....1..3....6.4.....5.3....78....9#tarek007#P(L)#1
3....71....8.5.....2.8....6..6.....4.7.....3.1.....9..7....1.2.....3.7....56....8#tarek008#P(L)#1
3....94....6.5.....1.8....2..1.....8.8.....1.4.....7..5....4.3.....3.9....81....6#tarek009#P(L)#1
1....96....5.8.....8.2....7..4.....2.9.....6.6.....1..3....6.1.....5.9....27....5#tarek010#P(L)#1
9....85....4.3.....6.1....3..6.....1.1.....6.5.....2..7....5.9.....9.8....16....4#tarek011#P(L)#1
3....94....6.5.....2.8....1..1.....8.9.....3.4.....7..9....4.2.....3.9....81....6#tarek012#P(L)#1
6....18....3.5.....1.4....5..9.....4.2.....6.1.....7..7....8.2.....3.1....45....3#tarek013#P(L)#1
9....82....6.2.....5.3....1..4.....3.7.....5.2.....1..8....3.7.....9.8....35....6#tarek014#P(L)#1
4....61....8.9.....6.5....9..2.....5.7.....6.6.....3..3....1.7.....8.6....59....8#tarek015#P(L)#1
4....68....7.3.....1.5....9..4.....5.6.....4.8.....2..6....8.1.....4.6....39....7#tarek016#P(L)#1
4....69....5.3.....6.7....2..2.....7.5.....4.8.....1..1....7.6.....4.8....72....9#tarek017#P(L)#1
2....31....4.1.....6.8....4..7.....8.9.....2.1.....3..6....1.3.....2.5....84....9#tarek018#P(L)#1
7....64....5.2.....8.9....2..2.....8.9.....7.4.....6..3....4.1.....6.3....82....9#tarek019#P(L)#1
9....42....7.6.....3.1....6..5.....1.8.....9.3.....4..4....2.8.....7.3....16....7#tarek020#P(L)#1
5....61....9.8.....3.9....7..4.....8.9.....5.1.....3..6....1.3.....2.6....84....9#tarek021#P(L)#1
...324.....6...3...9.....5.2...9...66..4.3..14...5...8.2.....8...7...4.....712...#tarek022#P(L)#1
...528.....7...9...4.....3.9...1...85..3.6..72...4...1.9.....8...2...5.....869...#tarek023#P(L)#1
...197.....9...2...7.....8.9...1...57..5.2..86...3...4.5.....3...2...6.....875...#tarek024#P(L)#1
...345.....5...2...6.....7.2...6...75..4.1..99...2...1.2.....4...1...6.....896...#tarek025#P(L)#1
...562.....5...8...7.....1.8...7...12..6.9..44...8...9.8.....6...9...7.....347...#tarek026#P(L)#1
...629.....6...3...9.....1.9...5...24..9.8..77...4...3.1.....6...5...8.....261...#tarek027#P(L)#1
...742.....4...9...1.....3.3...8...52..6.9..39...3...1.3.....4...2...8.....816...#tarek028#P(L)#1
..123......4........5...632...7.2..87...4...11..3.9...523...9........5......618..#TTHsieh003#P(L)#1
1.....6.4.2..7..5.3...........14.....7..58.9....7.9...........3.5..9..2.4.6.....1#Eioru001#F(2)#0
9..4..7...6..3..5...1..8..42..8..1...3..4..7...7..9..55..6..2...2..8..9...6..1..3#tso001#F(7)#1
6....39....4.5.....8.2....7..5.....2.9.....6.3.....1..1....9.4.....1.3....25....8#tarek029#F(5.1)#0
7....29....8.1.....5.4....6..1.....4.4.....3.2.....5..5....3.9.....7.2....46....1#tarek030#F(5.1)#0
5.3.....9.4...5.1.8.1.7.3.4.3.1...2.4...3.6.7.......8.7.9.....8...4.....3...5....#Morgoth001#F(6)#1
..1.7.....6...9.2.4.......3.1.8.2.9.......5...9...5.8...2.1.6.....2.7.5.3.8......#Morgoth002#F(5.2)#0

TarekP/F: Tarek's Categories (P: Pass F: Fail)
Cat: L:Lenient R:Rigorous
Point: Tarek's Categories reason for failure (Rule Point)
Tarek_SF>=: Number of swordfish AT LEAST NEEDED to solve.

tarek

[Edit: Rules have been updatet (Yet again), Please ignore this post]

[tarek]

As the process of rating is electronically done, I wouldn't mind if anyone DUMPS entries in this thread to check....

The best way to dump puzzles would be

Code: Select all

81-character_line_puzzle,Poster(No other identifier)

Example:
5.3.....9.4...5.1.8.1.7.3.4.3.1...2.4...3.6.7.......8.7.9.....8...4.....3...5....,Morgoth
..1.7.....6...9.2.4.......3.1.8.2.9.......5...9...5.8...2.1.6.....2.7.5.3.8......,Morgoth


Eache puzzle would then geat an ID as follws

Code: Select all

Poster+chronological_order_of_submitted_puzzle

Example:
5.3.....9.4...5.1.8.1.7.3.4.3.1...2.4...3.6.7.......8.7.9.....8...4.....3...5....,Morgoth001
..1.7.....6...9.2.4.......3.1.8.2.9.......5...9...5.8...2.1.6.....2.7.5.3.8......,Morgoth002


Any future reference to a puzzle in this thread would be:

Code: Select all

SPF_PSFC_ID

Example:
SPF_PSFC_Morgoth001
SPF_PSFC_Morgoth002


tarek

[tarek]

Another thought........

Just to increase the use of the ranking list...

I would propose to change the order of the rules (YET AGAIN) swapping rule the CURRENT rule 2 with rule 3......

Therefore...... any puzzle that passes rule 2 then it would be a puzzle that needs a swordfish to solve (regrardless of being pure"under any category")........so the ranking list would have SOMETHING for EVERYONE.

tarek

[tarek]

The final (hopefully) update to the set of rules will hopefully look like this:

Code: Select all

Rules:
1. Valid vanilla 9*9 sudoku
2. NEEDS a Swordfish to solve after applying the following set of techniques:
   2.1. Singles (Hidden/Naked)
   2.2. Box-Line/Line-Box interactions
   2.3. Subsets (doubles,triples,quads) (Hidden/Naked)
   2.4. X-Wing
3. Solved using the following set of techniques:
   3.1. Singles (Hidden/Naked)
   3.2. Swordfish (SF)
4. Swordfish needed (Point 2) >= Swordfish needed (Point 3), achieved electronically as:
   4.1. batches of SF needed (Pont 2) >= batches of SF needed (Point 3)
   4.2. (If 4.1. result is "=") Total Possible SF (Point 2) >= Total Possible SF (Point 3)
5. Symmetric (I-VII)
6. Minimal
7. NEEDS a Swordfish to solve after applying the following set of techniques:
   7.1. Singles (Hidden/Naked)
   7.2. Box-Line/Line-Box interactions
   7.3. Subsets (doubles,triples,quads) (Hidden/Naked)
   7.4. X-Wing
   7.5. Finned X-Wing (incl. Sashimi)
   7.6. Simple Colouring
   7.7. XYZ-Wing
   7.8. XY-Wing
   7.9. Uniqueness (1-4)
   7.10. BUG+1
--Checking puzzles will be processed sequentially through the rules above
--Checking will stop at Point of failure
--Failing any of rules (1-6): Label the puzzle as "Failed" displayed with the failure Point.
--Passing Rules (1-6): Label the puzzle as "PASS" under the "Lenient" category.
--Passing Rules (1-7): Label the puzzle as "PASS" under the "Rigorous" category.

tarek

[tarek]

..5...2..32...6....4..8..1.51.26...8..9.5.4..2...49.51.8..7..2....3...64..3...5..

tarek

[Edit: I posted the wrong puzzle earlier, thanx Pat]

[tarek]

I have updated the rules to satisfy hopefully a wider audience.

each puzzle has a score attached to it. All the info should be in the head post.

The score interpretation (also found in the head post) is:
Score = 1 ==> Invalid puzzle
Score = 2 ==> Requires other than a Swordfish to solve
Score > 2 ==> Requires a Swordfish to solve
Score > 3 ==> Pure Swordfish (Pat's Extra Lenient criteria)
Score > 4 ==> Pure Swordfish (Tarek's Lenient criteria but with Symmetry & Minimality not obligatory)
Score > 5 ==> Pure Swordfish (Tarek's Lenient criteria with Minimality not obligatory)
Score > 6 ==> Pure Swordfish (Tarek's Lenient criteria)
Score > 7 ==> Pure Swordfish (Tarek's Rigorous criteria)

The current Score sheet is (v5.0):

Puzzle#ID#Score#Tarek_SF>=
2...9.....6...31....12...7...7....2.3.......8.8....4...4...86....27...1.....5...4#tarek-001#8#2
7...4.....5...13....62...7...7....2.9.......8.3....5...6...31....27...6.....5...4#tarek-002#8#2
9...6.....4...18....72...9...9....2.5.......3.6....4...7...81....29...7.....4...6#tarek-003#8#2
1...7.....4...31....89...6...6....9.2.......3.1....4...8...42....96...8.....5...6#tarek-004#8#2
8...6.....5...39....98...1...1....8.3.......7.7....4...4...73....81...9.....2...5#tarek-005#8#2
5...4.....4...13....97...5...5....7.2.......6.1....8...9...84....75...9.....1...8#tarek-006#8#2
....1.....2...34....56...7...71...6.8.......9.1...72...5...43....67...5.....2....#TTHsieh-001#3#0
....1.....2...34....56...7...73...6.8.......3.4...82...9...28....67...3.....9....#TTHsieh-002#8#1
5....36....9.7.....4.2....8..8.....2.3.....5.6.....1..3....6.4.....5.3....78....9#tarek-007#8#1
3....71....8.5.....2.8....6..6.....4.7.....3.1.....9..7....1.2.....3.7....56....8#tarek-008#8#1
3....94....6.5.....1.8....2..1.....8.8.....1.4.....7..5....4.3.....3.9....81....6#tarek-009#8#1
1....96....5.8.....8.2....7..4.....2.9.....6.6.....1..3....6.1.....5.9....27....5#tarek-010#8#1
9....85....4.3.....6.1....3..6.....1.1.....6.5.....2..7....5.9.....9.8....16....4#tarek-011#8#1
3....94....6.5.....2.8....1..1.....8.9.....3.4.....7..9....4.2.....3.9....81....6#tarek-012#8#1
6....18....3.5.....1.4....5..9.....4.2.....6.1.....7..7....8.2.....3.1....45....3#tarek-013#8#1
9....82....6.2.....5.3....1..4.....3.7.....5.2.....1..8....3.7.....9.8....35....6#tarek-014#8#1
4....61....8.9.....6.5....9..2.....5.7.....6.6.....3..3....1.7.....8.6....59....8#tarek-015#8#1
4....68....7.3.....1.5....9..4.....5.6.....4.8.....2..6....8.1.....4.6....39....7#tarek-016#8#1
4....69....5.3.....6.7....2..2.....7.5.....4.8.....1..1....7.6.....4.8....72....9#tarek-017#8#1
2....31....4.1.....6.8....4..7.....8.9.....2.1.....3..6....1.3.....2.5....84....9#tarek-018#8#1
7....64....5.2.....8.9....2..2.....8.9.....7.4.....6..3....4.1.....6.3....82....9#tarek-019#8#1
9....42....7.6.....3.1....6..5.....1.8.....9.3.....4..4....2.8.....7.3....16....7#tarek-020#8#1
5....61....9.8.....3.9....7..4.....8.9.....5.1.....3..6....1.3.....2.6....84....9#tarek-021#8#1
...324.....6...3...9.....5.2...9...66..4.3..14...5...8.2.....8...7...4.....712...#tarek-022#7#1
...528.....7...9...4.....3.9...1...85..3.6..72...4...1.9.....8...2...5.....869...#tarek-023#7#1
...197.....9...2...7.....8.9...1...57..5.2..86...3...4.5.....3...2...6.....875...#tarek-024#7#1
...345.....5...2...6.....7.2...6...75..4.1..99...2...1.2.....4...1...6.....896...#tarek-025#8#1
...562.....5...8...7.....1.8...7...12..6.9..44...8...9.8.....6...9...7.....347...#tarek-026#8#1
...629.....6...3...9.....1.9...5...24..9.8..77...4...3.1.....6...5...8.....261...#tarek-027#8#1
...742.....4...9...1.....3.3...8...52..6.9..39...3...1.3.....4...2...8.....816...#tarek-028#7#1
..123......4........5...632...7.2..87...4...11..3.9...523...9........5......618..#TTHsieh-003#7#1
1.....6.4.2..7..5.3...........14.....7..58.9....7.9...........3.5..9..2.4.6.....1#Eioru-001#3#0
9..4..7...6..3..5...1..8..42..8..1...3..4..7...7..9..55..6..2...2..8..9...6..1..3#tso-001#6#1
6....39....4.5.....8.2....7..5.....2.9.....6.3.....1..1....9.4.....1.3....25....8#tarek-029#4.1#0
7....29....8.1.....5.4....6..1.....4.4.....3.2.....5..5....3.9.....7.2....46....1#tarek-030#4.1#0
5.3.....9.4...5.1.8.1.7.3.4.3.1...2.4...3.6.7.......8.7.9.....8...4.....3...5....#Morgoth-001#5#1
..1.7.....6...9.2.4.......3.1.8.2.9.......5...9...5.8...2.1.6.....2.7.5.3.8......#Morgoth-002#4.2#0
..5...2..32...6....4..8..1.51.26...8..9.5.4..2...49.51.8..7..2....3...64..3...5..#droid42-001#6#1

Tarek_SF>=: Number of swordfish AT LEAST NEEDED to solve.


tarek

[Pat]

1....6.8.45....2....92.......57...9..6..9314.93..1..573....5.6...19.........21..4

somehow i'm not finding that one
-- perhaps you can give the link

..5...2..32...6....4..8..1.51.26...8..9.5.4..2...49.51.8..7..2....3...64..3...5..

[tarek]

Thanx Pat,

indeed it was the puzzle you mention. I made the correction above.

The score sheet had the correct puzzle anyway.

tarek

[Pat]

yes, but

1....6.8.45....2....92.......57...9..6..9314.93..1..573....5.6...19.........21..4

is another pure Swordfish puzzle for the list
-- whatever its source.