17-clue and 18-clue Sudoku update

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

Postby gsf » Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:33 pm

RW wrote:
gsf wrote:the 3d one is already there

I believe coloin had them in the wrong order. The second one was the new puzzle:
Code: Select all
...4........7...3...9...6..........4.....8.7.6.832....3............9.5...7......8


thanks
so these are the 3 new ones in solution grid row canonical order
Code: Select all
.2.4....9..6.8.........................9.7.....8...61.5....1....9....4.2....6...7
1....6..........2..9.....4....9.....3.......6..5.4......2.........1.5..8.49...5..
1....6..........2..9.....4....9.....3.......6..5.4......2.........1.5.98.4....5..


btw, I posted a solver update, and the canonical form is now the more natural row-normal,
with the top row fixed to 123456789, so if you are using my solver be sure to recalibrate
any catalogs using the new -f%c and/or -f%C output -- more on this in the canonical thread
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Postby JPF » Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:56 pm

Things are moving quickly here !

gsf wrote:
RW wrote:Are those three puzzles already in the list?
...4........7...3...9...6..........4.....8.736.8.2....3............9.1...7......8
...4........7...3...9...6..........4.....8.7.6.8.2...53............9.1...7......8
...4........7...3...9...6..........4.....8.7.6.832....3............9.1...7......8

these are already in the list (gordon(36621) + wolfgang(1) + papy(2))


gsf wrote:
RW wrote:
gsf wrote:the 3d one is already there

I believe coloin had them in the wrong order. The second one was the new puzzle:
Code: Select all
...4........7...3...9...6..........4.....8.7.6.832....3............9.5...7......8


thanks
so these are the 3 new ones in solution grid row canonical order
Code: Select all
.2.4....9..6.8.........................9.7.....8...61.5....1....9....4.2....6...7
1....6..........2..9.....4....9.....3.......6..5.4......2.........1.5..8.49...5..
1....6..........2..9.....4....9.....3.......6..5.4......2.........1.5.98.4....5..


I'm lost.
I counted 36628 in the Gordon's list...
From the 3 new ones, how many from Papy, from Wolfgang, from... ?

Thanks.

JPF.
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Postby coloin » Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:06 pm

Yes well spotted,
Code: Select all
these are already in the list (gordon(36621) + wolfgang(1) + papy(2))

I dont think gsf was ever suggesting it was a competition ![im still chuckling]

Can we agree on which puzzle representation to use ?
I would suggest the
Code: Select all
+---+---+---+
|123|456|789|
|456|...|...|
|789|...|...|
+---+---+---+
|...|...|...|
|...|...|...|
|...|...|...|
+---+---+---+
|...|...|...|
|...|...|...|
|...|...|...|
+---+---+---+
as it is easier to spot the puzzles from similar grids this way.

Edit - I see you have suggested this

Gordon's original normalization would have to remain I suppose.

BTW the puzzle number in Gordon's file will change if/when it is updated when a new grid is added !
Last edited by coloin on Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby gsf » Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:09 pm

JPF wrote:Things are moving quickly here !

gsf wrote:these are already in the list (gordon(36621) + wolfgang(1) + papy(2))

I'm lost.
I counted 36628 in the Gordon's list...
From the 3 new ones, how many from Papy, from Wolfgang, from... ?

thanks
the 36621 should be 36627
wofgang's 1 was posted here
papy has 2 plus the extra one found by coloin in papy's grid (still attributed to papy)
so it should be:
Code: Select all
gordon(36627) + wolfgang(1) + papy(3)
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Postby coloin » Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:18 pm

Yes, please attribute it to papy
gfroyle wrote:I was sent, from Japan, a number of new 17-clue Sudokus. He or she (I can't tell from the name!) had constructed 700 puzzles, of which 33 were not already on the list.


And to be fair to wolfgang he had previously found one other 17 [earlier in this thread]

Code: Select all
(gordon(36593) + Japan (33) + wolfgang(2) + papy(3))


C
Last edited by coloin on Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby RW » Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:24 pm

gfroyle wrote:This collection was mainly produced by my own software, although Kohei Noshita has contributed a few hundred of them.


I guess the unidentified Japanese source has been revealed.

RW
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Postby Red Ed » Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:25 am

I think that this is another new 17, #one#two-off (delete a clue, add a clue) from Gordon's #28488:
Code: Select all
.1.2...3.4.....5.....6.....7...4.....2......6....5....5...73....8....4..........7
Is anyone else bothering to do this #one#two-off search? It's awfully tedious. I wish Gordon had done it for us!
Last edited by Red Ed on Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ronk » Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:50 am

Red Ed wrote:I think that this is another new 17, two-off from Gordon's #28488

Assuming the new total would be 36632 puzzles with 17 clues, I can confirm it's a new one. Congratulations!

My computer is too slow, so I'm not searching for two-offs.
Last edited by ronk on Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Red Ed » Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:33 pm

Another #one#two-off (delete a clue, add a clue):
Code: Select all
12.......3...4.......5..2....5....4...6.........6.1.3...7..86.......3..........5.
Last edited by Red Ed on Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby JPF » Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:21 pm

Red Ed wrote:Another one-off:
Code: Select all
12.......3...4.......5..2....5....4...6.........6.1.3...7..86.......3..........5.

are these two in the list ?
Code: Select all
12.......3...4.......5..2....5....4...6.........6.1.3...9..86.......3..........5.
12.......3...4.......5..2....5....4...6.........6.1.3...7..96.......3..........5.

JPF
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Postby Red Ed » Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:07 pm

JPF, your two puzzles are isomorphic to each other and to the puzzle that I just posted. I've noticed that changing a clue often results in an isomorph when the puzzle has 17 clues. Not at all sure why that should be.

But ... you've made me realise that my phrase "one off" is bad terminology for what I've been doing. Following Papy's lead, I've been taking Gordon's puzzles and deleting a clue (one cell write operation: cell[r] = 0) then adding a new one (another cell write operation: cell[s] = v). I think that this should be called "two off", not "one off" as I had said previously. What you've just done -- simply replacing one value with another -- genuinely is a one-off analysis.

So I'm going to go back and edit my previous few posts accordingly.
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Postby JPF » Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:25 pm

Sorry.
In this case, the isomorphism is obvious :
9 is missing in your "new" 17

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Postby Red Ed » Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:56 pm

JPF wrote:... your "new" 17
tsk, tsk, JPF -- you shouldn't begrudge me finding a new 17 when I'm prepared to add to my electricity bill with a long and mindless 2-off search.:)

Well spotted on the isomorphism. I miss the most obvious things sometimes.
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Postby JPF » Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:39 pm

Red Ed wrote:Well spotted on the isomorphism.
I should have seen it before my posting.

Red Ed wrote:I'm prepared to add to my electricity bill with a long and mindless 2-off search.:)
TIA, if it's your intention to do this 2-off search for the 36628 puzzles !

How would you call a x-off with : cell[r1]=cell[r2]=0 and adding 2 new cells cell[s1]=v1 ; cell[s2]=v2 ?:D

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Postby Red Ed » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:06 am

You mean apart from calling it a 4-off? How about "expensive!":D
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