XXXL deadly

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Re: XXXL deadly

Postby denis_berthier » Tue Jan 28, 2025 7:18 pm

eleven wrote:I have not realized, that from the 10-cell-DP only 3 single digits with a guardian each remained (2 other guardians eliminated).
Of course still one of the guardians must be true (you just have to remember them), though the pattern is almost completely destroyed and there is no DP anymore in the grid.

Yes. The ORk-relations between guardians are detected early. They are "persistent": they remain true whatever happens to the original DP. They are "ultra-persistent": if one the the guardians is eliminated, they are reduced to smaller oRk-relations.
This works the same way as for ORk-relations based on impossible patterns.
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Re: XXXL deadly

Postby eleven » Tue Jan 28, 2025 8:17 pm

Looking again at your 10-cell pattern i noticed, that the following pattern is a MUG.
And the 3 digit 2 guardians are part of it.
Code: Select all
       +-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
       ! .     27    .     ! .     .     .     ! 27    .     .     !
       ! .     267   2769  ! .     .     279   ! .     .     .     !
       ! .     .     279   ! .     .     279   ! 27    .     .     !
       +-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
       ! .     .     .     ! .     .     .     ! .     .     .     !
       ! .     .     .     ! .     .     .     ! .     .     .     !
       ! .     .     .     ! .     .     .     ! .     .     .     !
       +-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
       ! .     267   267   ! .     .     .     ! .     .     .     !
       ! .     .     .     ! .     .     .     ! .     .     .     !
       ! .     -     .     ! .     .     .     ! .     .     .     !
       +-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+

So the puzzle can be solved with 2 uniqueness steps.
Code: Select all
+-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
| 1     27    3     | 4     5     6     | 27    8     9     |
| 4     2567  269   | 27    8     279   | 1     3     25    |
| 57    8     29    | 1     3     279   | 257   6     4     |
+-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
| 2     4     1     | 8     9     5     | 6     7     3     |
| 59    3     7     | 6     24    1     | 49    25    8     |
| 6     59    8     | 3     247   27    | 49    25    1     |
+-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
| 3    *12+6 a26    | 5   a*12    4     | 8     9     7     |
| 8     79    4     | 79    6     3     | 25    1     25    |
| 79   *12    5     | 279 b*12+7  8     | 3     4     6     |
+-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+

UR 12: (1=2)r7c5 - (2=6) == (7-1)r9c5 = 1r7c5 => 1r7c5
Code: Select all
+-------------------+-------------------+--------------------+
| 1    #27     3    | 4     5     6     | #27    8     9     |
| 4    #267+5 #269  | 27    8    #279   |  1     3     2-5   |
| 5-7   8     #29   | 1     3    #279   | #27+5  6     4     |
+-------------------+-------------------+--------------------+
| 2     4      1    | 8     9     5     |  6     7     3     |
| 59    3      7    | 6     24    1     |  49    25    8     |
| 6     59     8    | 3     247   27    |  49    25    1     |
+-------------------+-------------------+--------------------+
| 3    #26    #26   | 5     1     4     |  8     9     7     |
| 8     79     4    | 79    6     3     |  25    1     25    |
| 79    1      5    | 279   27    8     |  3     4     6     |
+-------------------+-------------------+--------------------+

MUG 2679: 5r2c2=5r3c7 => -5r2c9,r3c1, stte
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Re: XXXL deadly

Postby denis_berthier » Wed Jan 29, 2025 6:55 am

.
So, what you mean is, the pattern can be understood both as a DP and as a MUG?
.
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Re: XXXL deadly

Postby P.O. » Wed Jan 29, 2025 12:26 pm

as this has nothing to do with DP i give my template resolution of this puzzle here
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Re: XXXL deadly

Postby denis_berthier » Wed Jan 29, 2025 2:53 pm

.
The resolution path I gave with templates is OK (only templates[1] eliminations and assertions appear in it).
However, this doesn't imply that the template-depth is 1 (and my answer to rjamil was incorrect).
The template-depth is 2.

No template[2] elimination appeared in my path because ?*print-templates* was set to FALSE (by default). (If TRUE, most of the time, there's a deluge of intermediate eliminations of templates[k], k>1.) If I set it to TRUE, the resolution path gives more detail:

Code: Select all
Retracting a template[1] for digit 2 incompatible with all the templates[1] for digit 7
Retracting a template[1] for digit 2 incompatible with all the templates[1] for digit 7
Retracting a template[1] for digit 2 incompatible with all the templates[1] for digit 5
candidate in no template[1] for digit 2 ==> r9c2≠2
whip[1]: r9n2{c5 .} ==> r7c5≠2
singles ==> r7c5=1, r9c2=1
Retracting a template[1] for digit 2 incompatible with all the templates[1] for digit 5
candidate in no template[1] for digit 2 ==> r3c3≠2
singles ==> r3c3=9, r2c6=9
candidate common to all the templates[1] for digit 7 ==> r1c7=7
singles ==> r1c2=2, r2c3=6, r7c3=2, r7c2=6
candidate in no template[1] for digit 7 ==> r9c4≠7
Retracting a template[1] for digit 2 incompatible with all the templates[1] for digit 5
candidate common to all the templates[1] for digit 2 ==> r5c8=2


As for the starting point after whips[1], it's justified because any whip[1] elimination can be done by a template[1] (obvious).
.
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Re: XXXL deadly

Postby P.O. » Wed Jan 29, 2025 3:28 pm

so for this case the mystery is solved, there is consideration of size 2 combinations.
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Re: XXXL deadly

Postby eleven » Wed Jan 29, 2025 7:33 pm

denis_berthier wrote:So, what you mean is, the pattern can be understood both as a DP and as a MUG?

Yes, DP's normally are subsets of MUG's. E.g. here by setting 2 and 7 outside you get the DP from the MUG:
Code: Select all
       +-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
       ! .     27    .     ! .     .     .     ! 27    .     .     !
       ! .     672   6927  ! .     2      792  ! .     .     .     !
       ! .     .     297   ! .     .      792  ! 27    .     .     !
       +-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
       ! .     267   267   ! .     .     .     ! .     .     .     !
       ! .     .     .     ! .     .     .     ! .     .     .     !
       ! .     .     7     ! .     .     .     ! .     .     .     !
       +-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
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Re: XXXL deadly

Postby pjb » Wed Jan 29, 2025 10:55 pm

I'm interested to see solutions involving POM/templates being suggested. In my implementation of the POM method, the puzzle is solved in a single step:

Between them r2c2 and r5c8 include all patterns of 5, so patterns of 2 which include both cells can be deleted. As a result, all remaining patterns of 2 include r9c4 so this can be made equal to 2; stte

Phil
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Re: XXXL deadly

Postby denis_berthier » Thu Jan 30, 2025 3:19 am

.
I've improved what's printed out by templates (the templates eliminated are now explicitly identified):

Code: Select all
Retracting a template[1] (n2c763185294) incompatible with all the templates[1] for digit 7
Retracting a template[1] (n2c763158294) incompatible with all the templates[1] for digit 7
Retracting a template[1] (n2c743186592) incompatible with all the templates[1] for digit 5
candidate in no template[1] for digit 2 ==> r9c2≠2
candidate in no template[1] for digit 2 ==> r7c5≠2
naked-single ==> r7c5=1
hidden-single-in-a-block ==> r9c2=1
Retracting a template[1] (n2c743186295) incompatible with all the templates[1] for digit 5
candidate in no template[1] for digit 2 ==> r3c3≠2
naked-single ==> r3c3=9
hidden-single-in-a-row ==> r2c6=9
candidate common to all the templates[1] for digit 7 ==> r1c7=7
naked-single ==> r1c2=2
naked-single ==> r2c3=6
naked-single ==> r7c3=2
naked-single ==> r7c2=6
candidate in no template[1] for digit 7 ==> r9c4≠7
Retracting a template[1] (n2c296158374) incompatible with all the templates[1] for digit 5
candidate common to all the templates[1] for digit 2 ==> r5c8=2
stte
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Re: XXXL deadly

Postby rjamil » Thu Jan 30, 2025 3:58 am

I have reinstated the Double-digit POM placement move. However, it does not change the statistics of solving the puzzles without guessing, but, solve with less steps (overall faster).

Code: Select all
24) Double-digit POM: 2 in r1c27 r2c23469 r3c367 r4c1 r5c58 r6c568 r7c235 r8c79 r9c245
and POM: 5 in r1c5 r2c29 r3c17 r4c6 r5c18 r6c28 r7c4 r8c79 r9c3
Digit 2 not in 5 Templates => -2 @ r2c4 r6c6 r7c5 r9c2 r9c5
Digit 2 in all 5 Templates => 2 @ r9c4
24) Double-digit POM: 2 in r1c27 r2c2369 r3c367 r4c1 r5c58 r6c58 r7c23 r8c79 r9c4
and POM: 7 in r1c27 r2c246 r3c167 r4c8 r5c3 r6c56 r7c9 r8c24 r9c125
Digit 2 not in 6 Templates => -2 @ r3c3
24) Double-digit POM: 7 in r1c27 r2c246 r3c167 r4c8 r5c3 r6c56 r7c9 r8c24 r9c125
and POM: 9 in r1c9 r2c36 r3c36 r4c5 r5c17 r6c27 r7c8 r8c24 r9c12
Digit 7 not in 1 Template => -7 @ r1c2 r2c2 r2c6 r3c6 r3c7 r6c5 r8c4 r9c1 r9c2
Digit 7 in all 1 Template => 7 @ r1c7 r3c1 r8c2 r9c5
24) Double-digit POM: 9 in r1c9 r2c36 r3c36 r4c5 r5c17 r6c27 r7c8 r8c4 r9c12
and POM: 1 in r1c1 r2c7 r3c4 r4c3 r5c6 r6c9 r7c25 r8c8 r9c2
Digit 9 not in 2 Templates => -9 @ r5c1 r6c7 r9c2
Digit 9 in all 2 Templates => 9 @ r5c7 r6c2

R. Jamil
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