- Code: Select all
*-----------*
|..2|...|7..|
|.5.|.2.|.1.|
|9..|6.4|..8|
|---+---+---|
|1.4|739|2.5|
|...|...|...|
|2.5|486|9.1|
|---+---+---|
|5..|2.8|..3|
|.2.|.4.|.8.|
|..6|...|4..|
*-----------*
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Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013
27 posts
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Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013
by ArkieTech » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:24 am
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dan
-
ArkieTech - Posts: 3355
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013
by Leren » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:31 am
- Code: Select all
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| 346 136 2 | 8 b159 15-3 | 7 459 469 |
| 467-3 5 8 |a39 2 c37 | 6-3 1 469 |
| 9 137 137 | 6 b157 4 | 35 2 8 |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 1 8 4 | 7 3 9 | 2 6 5 |
| 367 3679 379 | 15 b15 2 | 8 347 47 |
| 2 37 5 | 4 8 6 | 9 37 1 |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 5 4 79 | 2 6 8 | 1 79 3 |
| 37 2 1379 | 1359 4 1357 | 56 8 679 |
| 8 1379 6 | 1359 79-15 1357 | 4 579 2 |
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
ANS XY Wing Loop: (3=9) r2c4 - r1c5 = 7r3c5 [ANS(1579)r135c5] - (7=3) r2c6 Loop => r1c6, r2c1, r2c7 <> 3, r9c5 <> 1,5; stte
1. Adjusted notation for typo.
2. Added eliminations r9c5 <> 1,5 after reading daj95376's post below. This is because the ANS cells marked b form part of
a loop => the 9 and 7 in those cells can't both be true => the other ANS candidates must be contained within the ANS cells.
Nice catch Danny !
Leren
Last edited by Leren on Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013
by ArkieTech » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:26 pm
- Code: Select all
*-----------------------------------------------------------*
| 346 136 2 | 8 a159 15-3 | 7 459 469 |
| 3467 5 8 |c39 2 c37 | 36 1 469 |
| 9 137 137 | 6 a157 4 | 35 2 8 |
|-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
| 1 8 4 | 7 3 9 | 2 6 5 |
| 367 3679 379 | 15 b15 2 | 8 347 47 |
| 2 37 5 | 4 8 6 | 9 37 1 |
|-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
| 5 4 79 | 2 6 8 | 1 79 3 |
| 37 2 1379 | 1359 4 1357 | 56 8 679 |
| 8 1379 6 | 1359 79-15 1357 | 4 579 2 |
*-----------------------------------------------------------*
Sue de Coq
sdc:1579r13c5,15r5c5,379r2c46 => -15r9c5,-3r1c6; lclste
dan
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ArkieTech - Posts: 3355
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- Location: NW Arkansas USA
Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013
by ArkieTech » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:17 pm
Leren wrote:
- Code: Select all
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| 346 136 2 | 8 b159 15-3 | 7 459 469 |
| 467-3 5 8 |a39 2 c37 | 6-3 1 469 |
| 9 137 137 | 6 b157 4 | 35 2 8 |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 1 8 4 | 7 3 9 | 2 6 5 |
| 367 3679 379 | 15 b15 2 | 8 347 47 |
| 2 37 5 | 4 8 6 | 9 37 1 |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 5 4 79 | 2 6 8 | 1 79 3 |
| 37 2 1379 | 1359 4 1357 | 56 8 679 |
| 8 1379 6 | 1359 1579 1357 | 4 579 2 |
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
ANS XY Wing Loop: (3=9) r2c4 - r1c5 = 7r3c3 [ANS(1579)r135c5] - (7=3) r2c6 Loop => r1c6, r2c1, r2c7 <> 3; stte
Leren
Nice find Leren
I have used it in a discussion of Eureka notation Heredan
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ArkieTech - Posts: 3355
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013
by SudoQ » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:36 pm
- Code: Select all
|------------------|------------------|--------------|
| 346 136 2 | 8 (15)9 (15)-3| 7 459 469 |
| 3467 5 8 | 39 2 37 | 36 1 469 |
| 9 137 137 | 6 (15)7 4 | 35 2 8 |
|------------------|------------------|--------------|
| 1 8 4 | 7 3 9 | 2 6 5 |
| 367 3679 379 | 15 (15) 2 | 8 347 47 |
| 2 37 5 | 4 8 6 | 9 37 1 |
|------------------|------------------|--------------|
| 5 4 79 | 2 6 8 | 1 79 3 |
| 37 2 1379 | 1359 4 1357 | 56 8 679 |
| 8 1379 6 | 1359 1579 1357 | 4 579 2 |
|------------------|------------------|--------------|
(r2c4 and r2c6 not needed)
- Code: Select all
|------------------|------------------|---------------|
| 346 136 2 | 8 159 135 | 7 3459 469 |
| 3467 5 8 | 39 2 (37) |(3)6 1 469 |
| 9 137 137 | 6 1(5)-7 4 |(35) 2 8 |
|------------------|------------------|---------------|
| 1 8 4 | 7 3 9 | 2 6 5 |
| 367 3679 379 | 15 15 2 | 8 347 47 |
| 2 37 5 | 4 8 6 | 9 37 1 |
|------------------|------------------|---------------|
| 5 4 79 | 2 6 8 | 1 79 3 |
| 37 2 1379 | 1359 4 1357 | 56 8 679 |
| 8 1379 6 | 1359 1579 1357 | 4 579 2 |
|------------------|------------------|---------------|
- SudoQ
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- Joined: 09 September 2011
Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013
by eleven » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:56 pm
SudoQ wrote:(r2c4 and r2c6 not needed)
Ok, but you must have verified, that they cannot be 1 or 5.
I guess that you argue, that only one of digits 15 can be in r13c5, therefore the other must be in r1c6.
[edited formulation:]
ArchieTech's Sue de Coq similarily says, 379 must be in r2c46 and one of r13c5, and can be eliminated from the rest of the box.
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013
by daj95376 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:13 pm
Leren wrote:
- Code: Select all
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| 346 136 2 | 8 b159 15-3 | 7 459 469 |
| 467-3 5 8 |a39 2 c37 | 6-3 1 469 |
| 9 137 137 | 6 b157 4 | 35 2 8 |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 1 8 4 | 7 3 9 | 2 6 5 |
| 367 3679 379 | 15 b15 2 | 8 347 47 |
| 2 37 5 | 4 8 6 | 9 37 1 |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 5 4 79 | 2 6 8 | 1 79 3 |
| 37 2 1379 | 1359 4 1357 | 56 8 679 |
| 8 1379 6 | 1359 1579 1357 | 4 579 2 |
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
ANS XY Wing Loop: (3=9) r2c4 - r1c5 = 7r3c5 [ANS(1579)r135c5] - (7=3) r2c6 Loop => r1c6, r2c1, r2c7 <> 3; stte
Leren
Here's where the form of the ANS notation becomes significant in conveying information.
- Code: Select all
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| 346 136 2 | 8 159 135 | 7 459 469 |
| 3467 5 8 | 39 2 37 | 36 1 469 |
| 9 137 137 | 6 157 4 | 35 2 8 |
|--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
| 1 8 4 | 7 3 9 | 2 6 5 |
| 367 3679 379 | 15 15 2 | 8 347 47 |
| 2 37 5 | 4 8 6 | 9 37 1 |
|--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
| 5 4 79 | 2 6 8 | 1 79 3 |
| 37 2 1379 | 1359 4 1357 | 56 8 679 |
| 8 1379 6 | 1359 1579 1357 | 4 579 2 |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
# 70 eliminations remain
- poor- no justification for r9c5 eliminations
(3=9)r2c4 - (9=7)r135c5 - (7=3)r2c6 - loop => r1c6,r2c37<>3, r9c5<>15
-slightly better- vague justification for r9c5 eliminations
(3=9)r2c4 - (915=157)r135c5 - (7=3)r2c6 - loop => r1c6,r2c37<>3, r9c5<>15
-better- forced <15> pairing justifies r9c5 eliminations
(3=9)r2c4 - (9=[15]=7)r135c5 - (7=3)r2c6 - loop => r1c6,r2c37<>3, r9c5<>15
-full breakdown-
(3=9)r2c4 - (9=15)r15c5 - (15=7)r53c5 - (7=3)r2c6 - loop -> r1c6,r2c37<>3, r9c5<>15
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013
by DonM » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:06 pm
My concern is that (IMO) the notation used for the ANS does not reflect what's happening in an ALS/ANS:
ANS XY Wing Loop: (3=9) r2c4 - r1c5 = 7r3c5 [ANS(1579)r135c5] - (7=3) r2c6 Loop => r1c6, r2c1, r2c7 <> 3; stte
As I see it, the 9 in r1c5 is the critical part of the ANS but isn't shown as such. If you read the logic flow as written above, it says: if not (9)r1c5) then (7)r3c5[ANS(1579)r135c5], but that's not really correct because after 'not (9)r1c5)', there is not an ANS(1579), but a NS(157).
On the other hand, if it is written (as has been IMO the standard for years, except for the discretionary label), the actual logic flow as notated not only is accurate, but makes it easier for the reader to understand:
(3=9)r2c4-ANS(9=157)r135c5-(7=3)r2c6 loop
ANS XY Wing Loop: (3=9) r2c4 - r1c5 = 7r3c5 [ANS(1579)r135c5] - (7=3) r2c6 Loop => r1c6, r2c1, r2c7 <> 3; stte
As I see it, the 9 in r1c5 is the critical part of the ANS but isn't shown as such. If you read the logic flow as written above, it says: if not (9)r1c5) then (7)r3c5[ANS(1579)r135c5], but that's not really correct because after 'not (9)r1c5)', there is not an ANS(1579), but a NS(157).
On the other hand, if it is written (as has been IMO the standard for years, except for the discretionary label), the actual logic flow as notated not only is accurate, but makes it easier for the reader to understand:
(3=9)r2c4-ANS(9=157)r135c5-(7=3)r2c6 loop
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013
by SudoQ » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:27 pm
eleven wrote:Ok, but you must have verified, that they cannot be 1 or 5.
This is true, although I would rather express it like this:
q2 may contain 1 and 5 only in c5 and r1c6.
My point is that a Sue de Coq often can be broken down into a smaller pattern.
/SudoQ
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013
by Leren » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:40 pm
- Code: Select all
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| 346 136 2 | 8 c159 d15-3 | 7 459 469 |
| 3467 5 8 | 39 2 37 | 36 1 469 |
| 9 137 137 | 6 b157 4 | 35 2 8 |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 1 8 4 | 7 3 9 | 2 6 5 |
| 367 3679 379 | 15 a15 2 | 8 347 47 |
| 2 37 5 | 4 8 6 | 9 37 1 |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 5 4 79 | 2 6 8 | 1 79 3 |
| 37 2 1379 | 1359 4 1357 | 56 8 679 |
| 8 1379 6 | 1359 79-15 1357 | 4 579 2 |
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
M Ring Type D: 1r5c5 - r13c5 = (1-5) r1c6 = 5r13c5 - (5=1) r5c5 Loop: => r9c5 <> 1,5 r1c6 <>3; lclste
Leren
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013
by Marty R. » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:03 pm
- Code: Select all
+----------------+----------------+------------+
| 346 136 2 | 8 159 135 | 7 459 469 |
| 3467 5 8 | 39 2 37 | 36 1 469 |
| 9 137 137 | 6 157 4 | 35 2 8 |
+----------------+----------------+------------+
| 1 8 4 | 7 3 9 | 2 6 5 |
| 367 3679 379 | 15 15 2 | 8 347 47 |
| 2 37 5 | 4 8 6 | 9 37 1 |
+----------------+----------------+------------+
| 5 4 79 | 2 6 8 | 1 79 3 |
| 37 2 1379 | 1359 4 1357 | 56 8 679 |
| 8 1379 6 | 1359 1579 1357 | 4 579 2 |
+----------------+----------------+------------+
Play this puzzle online at the Daily Sudoku site
R2c4=9=>r2c6=3=>r2c7<>3, which is the same elimination in some previous posts, but a different path.
(3=9)r2c4-(159=7)r153c5-(7=3)r2c6=>r2c7<>3
That is how I have been notating these things. If I correctly interpret Don's comments over the last week or two, he recommends:
(3=9)r2c4-(9=157)r153c5-(7=3)r2c6=>r2c7<>3
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013
by Luke » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:19 pm
Marty R. wrote:That is how I have been notating these things. If I correctly interpret Don's comments over the last week or two, he recommends:
(3=9)r2c4-(9=157)r153c5-(7=3)r2c6=>r2c7<>3
A couple of wonderings, not necessarily directed at you, Marty.
Are we foregoing labels all together now?
I'm fine win ANS, but what has happened to ALS? Same-same?
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013
by eleven » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:23 pm
SudoQ wrote:eleven wrote:Ok, but you must have verified, that they cannot be 1 or 5.
This is true, although I would rather express it like this:
q2 may contain 1 and 5 only in c5 and r1c6.
Oh yes, you are right, when i use a strong link, i also just can take it from the grid as it is ...
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013
by ronk » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:39 pm
Luke451 wrote:Marty R. wrote:If I correctly interpret Don's comments over the last week or two, he recommends:
(3=9)r2c4-(9=157)r153c5-(7=3)r2c6=>r2c7<>3
Are we foregoing labels all together now? I'm fine win ANS, but what has happened to ALS? Same-same?
Perhaps he wishes to avoid the ALS vs ANS "debate."
BTW I don't recall bennys, the originator of the ALS-xz and the ALS-xy-wing, ever using the ANS term.
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013
by pjb » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:58 pm
In order to avoid the problems with notation for ALSs and SDCs, may I suggest this continuous nice loop:
(3=9)r2c4 - 9 - r1c5 = 9 = (9-7)r9c5 = 7 = r3c5 - 7 - (7=3)r2c6: loop => -12r9c5, -3r1c6, r2c17.
Phil
(3=9)r2c4 - 9 - r1c5 = 9 = (9-7)r9c5 = 7 = r3c5 - 7 - (7=3)r2c6: loop => -12r9c5, -3r1c6, r2c17.
Phil
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27 posts
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