Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013

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Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013

Postby ArkieTech » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:24 am

Code: Select all
 *-----------*
 |..2|...|7..|
 |.5.|.2.|.1.|
 |9..|6.4|..8|
 |---+---+---|
 |1.4|739|2.5|
 |...|...|...|
 |2.5|486|9.1|
 |---+---+---|
 |5..|2.8|..3|
 |.2.|.4.|.8.|
 |..6|...|4..|
 *-----------*
 



Play/Print this puzzle online
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013

Postby Leren » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:31 am

Code: Select all
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| 346     136     2        | 8      b159     15-3     | 7       459     469      |
| 467-3   5       8        |a39      2      c37       | 6-3     1       469      |
| 9       137     137      | 6      b157     4        | 35      2       8        |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 1       8       4        | 7       3       9        | 2       6       5        |
| 367     3679    379      | 15     b15      2        | 8       347     47       |
| 2       37      5        | 4       8       6        | 9       37      1        |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 5       4       79       | 2       6       8        | 1       79      3        |
| 37      2       1379     | 1359    4       1357     | 56      8       679      |
| 8       1379    6        | 1359    79-15   1357     | 4       579     2        |
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*


ANS XY Wing Loop: (3=9) r2c4 - r1c5 = 7r3c5 [ANS(1579)r135c5] - (7=3) r2c6 Loop => r1c6, r2c1, r2c7 <> 3, r9c5 <> 1,5; stte

1. Adjusted notation for typo.

2. Added eliminations r9c5 <> 1,5 after reading daj95376's post below. This is because the ANS cells marked b form part of
a loop => the 9 and 7 in those cells can't both be true => the other ANS candidates must be contained within the ANS cells.

Nice catch Danny !

Leren
Last edited by Leren on Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013

Postby ArkieTech » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:26 pm

Code: Select all
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
 | 346   136   2     | 8    a159   15-3  | 7     459   469   |
 | 3467  5     8     |c39    2    c37    | 36    1     469   |
 | 9     137   137   | 6    a157   4     | 35    2     8     |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 1     8     4     | 7     3     9     | 2     6     5     |
 | 367   3679  379   | 15   b15    2     | 8     347   47    |
 | 2     37    5     | 4     8     6     | 9     37    1     |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 5     4     79    | 2     6     8     | 1     79    3     |
 | 37    2     1379  | 1359  4     1357  | 56    8     679   |
 | 8     1379  6     | 1359  79-15 1357  | 4     579   2     |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
Sue de Coq
sdc:1579r13c5,15r5c5,379r2c46 => -15r9c5,-3r1c6; lclste
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013

Postby ArkieTech » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:17 pm

Leren wrote:
Code: Select all
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| 346     136     2        | 8      b159     15-3     | 7       459     469      |
| 467-3   5       8        |a39      2      c37       | 6-3     1       469      |
| 9       137     137      | 6      b157     4        | 35      2       8        |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 1       8       4        | 7       3       9        | 2       6       5        |
| 367     3679    379      | 15     b15      2        | 8       347     47       |
| 2       37      5        | 4       8       6        | 9       37      1        |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 5       4       79       | 2       6       8        | 1       79      3        |
| 37      2       1379     | 1359    4       1357     | 56      8       679      |
| 8       1379    6        | 1359    1579    1357     | 4       579     2        |
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*


ANS XY Wing Loop: (3=9) r2c4 - r1c5 = 7r3c3 [ANS(1579)r135c5] - (7=3) r2c6 Loop => r1c6, r2c1, r2c7 <> 3; stte

Leren


Nice find Leren :D I have used it in a discussion of Eureka notation Here
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013

Postby SudoQ » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:36 pm

Code: Select all
|------------------|------------------|--------------|
| 346   136   2    | 8    (15)9 (15)-3| 7   459  469 |
| 3467  5     8    | 39    2     37   | 36  1    469 |
| 9     137   137  | 6    (15)7  4    | 35  2    8   |
|------------------|------------------|--------------|
| 1     8     4    | 7     3     9    | 2   6    5   |
| 367   3679  379  | 15   (15)   2    | 8   347  47  |
| 2     37    5    | 4     8     6    | 9   37   1   |
|------------------|------------------|--------------|
| 5     4     79   | 2     6     8    | 1   79   3   |
| 37    2     1379 | 1359  4     1357 | 56  8    679 |
| 8     1379  6    | 1359  1579  1357 | 4   579  2   |
|------------------|------------------|--------------|
(r2c4 and r2c6 not needed)
or
Code: Select all
|------------------|------------------|---------------|
| 346   136   2    | 8     159   135  | 7   3459  469 |
| 3467  5     8    | 39    2    (37)  |(3)6  1    469 |
| 9     137   137  | 6    1(5)-7  4   |(35)  2    8   |
|------------------|------------------|---------------|
| 1     8     4    | 7     3     9    | 2   6     5   |
| 367   3679  379  | 15    15    2    | 8   347   47  |
| 2     37    5    | 4     8     6    | 9   37    1   |
|------------------|------------------|---------------|
| 5     4     79   | 2     6     8    | 1   79    3   |
| 37    2     1379 | 1359  4     1357 | 56  8     679 |
| 8     1379  6    | 1359  1579  1357 | 4   579   2   |
|------------------|------------------|---------------|
/SudoQ
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013

Postby eleven » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:56 pm

SudoQ wrote:(r2c4 and r2c6 not needed)

Ok, but you must have verified, that they cannot be 1 or 5.
I guess that you argue, that only one of digits 15 can be in r13c5, therefore the other must be in r1c6.
[edited formulation:]
ArchieTech's Sue de Coq similarily says, 379 must be in r2c46 and one of r13c5, and can be eliminated from the rest of the box.
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013

Postby daj95376 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:13 pm

Leren wrote:
Code: Select all
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| 346     136     2        | 8      b159     15-3     | 7       459     469      |
| 467-3   5       8        |a39      2      c37       | 6-3     1       469      |
| 9       137     137      | 6      b157     4        | 35      2       8        |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 1       8       4        | 7       3       9        | 2       6       5        |
| 367     3679    379      | 15     b15      2        | 8       347     47       |
| 2       37      5        | 4       8       6        | 9       37      1        |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 5       4       79       | 2       6       8        | 1       79      3        |
| 37      2       1379     | 1359    4       1357     | 56      8       679      |
| 8       1379    6        | 1359    1579    1357     | 4       579     2        |
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*


ANS XY Wing Loop: (3=9) r2c4 - r1c5 = 7r3c5 [ANS(1579)r135c5] - (7=3) r2c6 Loop => r1c6, r2c1, r2c7 <> 3; stte

Leren


Here's where the form of the ANS notation becomes significant in conveying information.

Code: Select all
 +--------------------------------------------------------------+
 |  346   136   2     |  8     159   135   |  7     459   469   |
 |  3467  5     8     |  39    2     37    |  36    1     469   |
 |  9     137   137   |  6     157   4     |  35    2     8     |
 |--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
 |  1     8     4     |  7     3     9     |  2     6     5     |
 |  367   3679  379   |  15    15    2     |  8     347   47    |
 |  2     37    5     |  4     8     6     |  9     37    1     |
 |--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
 |  5     4     79    |  2     6     8     |  1     79    3     |
 |  37    2     1379  |  1359  4     1357  |  56    8     679   |
 |  8     1379  6     |  1359  1579  1357  |  4     579   2     |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------+
 # 70 eliminations remain


 - poor-   no justification for r9c5 eliminations

 (3=9)r2c4 - (9=7)r135c5 - (7=3)r2c6 - loop => r1c6,r2c37<>3, r9c5<>15


 -slightly better-   vague justification for r9c5 eliminations

 (3=9)r2c4 - (915=157)r135c5 - (7=3)r2c6 - loop => r1c6,r2c37<>3, r9c5<>15


 -better-   forced <15> pairing justifies r9c5 eliminations

 (3=9)r2c4 - (9=[15]=7)r135c5 - (7=3)r2c6 - loop => r1c6,r2c37<>3, r9c5<>15


 -full breakdown-

 (3=9)r2c4 - (9=15)r15c5 - (15=7)r53c5 - (7=3)r2c6 - loop -> r1c6,r2c37<>3, r9c5<>15
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013

Postby DonM » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:06 pm

My concern is that (IMO) the notation used for the ANS does not reflect what's happening in an ALS/ANS:

ANS XY Wing Loop: (3=9) r2c4 - r1c5 = 7r3c5 [ANS(1579)r135c5] - (7=3) r2c6 Loop => r1c6, r2c1, r2c7 <> 3; stte

As I see it, the 9 in r1c5 is the critical part of the ANS but isn't shown as such. If you read the logic flow as written above, it says: if not (9)r1c5) then (7)r3c5[ANS(1579)r135c5], but that's not really correct because after 'not (9)r1c5)', there is not an ANS(1579), but a NS(157).

On the other hand, if it is written (as has been IMO the standard for years, except for the discretionary label), the actual logic flow as notated not only is accurate, but makes it easier for the reader to understand:

(3=9)r2c4-ANS(9=157)r135c5-(7=3)r2c6 loop
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013

Postby SudoQ » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:27 pm

eleven wrote:Ok, but you must have verified, that they cannot be 1 or 5.

This is true, although I would rather express it like this:
q2 may contain 1 and 5 only in c5 and r1c6.

My point is that a Sue de Coq often can be broken down into a smaller pattern.

/SudoQ
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013

Postby Leren » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:40 pm

Code: Select all
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| 346     136     2        | 8      c159    d15-3     | 7       459     469      |
| 3467    5       8        | 39      2       37       | 36      1       469      |
| 9       137     137      | 6      b157     4        | 35      2       8        |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 1       8       4        | 7       3       9        | 2       6       5        |
| 367     3679    379      | 15     a15      2        | 8       347     47       |
| 2       37      5        | 4       8       6        | 9       37      1        |
|--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
| 5       4       79       | 2       6       8        | 1       79      3        |
| 37      2       1379     | 1359    4       1357     | 56      8       679      |
| 8       1379    6        | 1359    79-15   1357     | 4       579     2        |
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*


M Ring Type D: 1r5c5 - r13c5 = (1-5) r1c6 = 5r13c5 - (5=1) r5c5 Loop: => r9c5 <> 1,5 r1c6 <>3; lclste

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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013

Postby Marty R. » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:03 pm

Code: Select all
+----------------+----------------+------------+
| 346  136  2    | 8    159  135  | 7  459 469 |
| 3467 5    8    | 39   2    37   | 36 1   469 |
| 9    137  137  | 6    157  4    | 35 2   8   |
+----------------+----------------+------------+
| 1    8    4    | 7    3    9    | 2  6   5   |
| 367  3679 379  | 15   15   2    | 8  347 47  |
| 2    37   5    | 4    8    6    | 9  37  1   |
+----------------+----------------+------------+
| 5    4    79   | 2    6    8    | 1  79  3   |
| 37   2    1379 | 1359 4    1357 | 56 8   679 |
| 8    1379 6    | 1359 1579 1357 | 4  579 2   |
+----------------+----------------+------------+

Play this puzzle online at the Daily Sudoku site

R2c4=9=>r2c6=3=>r2c7<>3, which is the same elimination in some previous posts, but a different path.

(3=9)r2c4-(159=7)r153c5-(7=3)r2c6=>r2c7<>3

That is how I have been notating these things. If I correctly interpret Don's comments over the last week or two, he recommends:

(3=9)r2c4-(9=157)r153c5-(7=3)r2c6=>r2c7<>3
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013

Postby Luke » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:19 pm

Marty R. wrote:That is how I have been notating these things. If I correctly interpret Don's comments over the last week or two, he recommends:

(3=9)r2c4-(9=157)r153c5-(7=3)r2c6=>r2c7<>3


A couple of wonderings, not necessarily directed at you, Marty.

Are we foregoing labels all together now?

I'm fine win ANS, but what has happened to ALS? Same-same?
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013

Postby eleven » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:23 pm

SudoQ wrote:
eleven wrote:Ok, but you must have verified, that they cannot be 1 or 5.

This is true, although I would rather express it like this:
q2 may contain 1 and 5 only in c5 and r1c6.

Oh yes, you are right, when i use a strong link, i also just can take it from the grid as it is ...
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013

Postby ronk » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:39 pm

Luke451 wrote:
Marty R. wrote:If I correctly interpret Don's comments over the last week or two, he recommends:

(3=9)r2c4-(9=157)r153c5-(7=3)r2c6=>r2c7<>3

Are we foregoing labels all together now? I'm fine win ANS, but what has happened to ALS? Same-same?

Perhaps he wishes to avoid the ALS vs ANS "debate." ;)

BTW I don't recall bennys, the originator of the ALS-xz and the ALS-xy-wing, ever using the ANS term.
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Re: Vanhegan Extreme January 7, 2013

Postby pjb » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:58 pm

In order to avoid the problems with notation for ALSs and SDCs, may I suggest this continuous nice loop:

(3=9)r2c4 - 9 - r1c5 = 9 = (9-7)r9c5 = 7 = r3c5 - 7 - (7=3)r2c6: loop => -12r9c5, -3r1c6, r2c17.

Phil
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