The New Sudoku Players' Forum

by **champagne** » Mon Aug 11, 2025 8:22 am

Upia family start

This is the second family of tridagon vicinity expansion.
I had to define how to process before releasing it, and this is I hope the final way to report on this work.

Just to be clear, this is an attempt to see if we can grow from a unique seed and keep big tridagon families with no bridge to other families.

The 2 ways to grow from a seed will be

The “classical” vicinity search as defined for me in this thread Vicinity search for high ratings : Software

A variant of the Maxexpand where clues can be added as long as the “easy filter” is still active.
========================================
The start for a family is done here is in 2 steps

First is a classical vicinity on all the puzzles of the solution grid seed (here 733 puzzles). This step opens the door to other solution grids
Second is a max expand step on the results of the first one (keeping only puzzles rating skfr >= 10.5)

At the end of these 2 steps, we have
A list of puzzles in canonical morph as this one

[list=]
....56......7.....7891.....21..9.87..4......19......42...2...17.7.9..4.88.1....9.;105;30359916;m01FOQ2Cm8Mf52;356;2

....56......7.....7891.....21..9.87..4......19......42...2...17.7.9..4.88.1....9.; puzzle in minlex solution grid morph
105; skfr rating x 10 (here 10.5)
30359916; solution grid rank
m01FOQ2Cm8Mf52; puzzle bitfield in the solution grid
356; digits of the tridagon threat (could be 0 if the quick code did not find the 3 digits
2 “corner box” box not in the bands/stacks of the tridagon threat[/list]

The entire list will be stored on my google drive, one file per family

In this thread, I’ll give only summaries

[list=]Puzzles per rating,
Puzzles per solution grid
Tridagon threat list here 30359916;356;2 (This is the quickest way to see if we have bridges to another family.)
[/list]

In fact, “solution grid+digit+corner box” defines a tridagon threat, valid also if the solution grid has no tridagon pattern.

Next post contains the summary of the start for the “upia” family

by **champagne** » Mon Aug 11, 2025 8:44 am

The "upia" family starts from the solution grid rank 30384643 with 12 grids rating 11.8 attached and 733 puzzles

Hidden Text: Show

after the 2 steps, we get 47048 puzzles (rating >=10.5)
with the following summary

Code: Select all: Er CountOfpuz 105 34412 106 6405 107 388 108 515 109 554 110 1932 111 2471 112 272 113 30 114 12 116 17 117 28 118 12

we see that we have here no new 11.8
results are in 20 solution grids

Code: Select all: rank CountOfpuz 30359916 3773 30371007 1103 30383362 1692 30384643 16867 upia 31495381 1506 31681493 56 31693641 869 162014823 1404 190273228 840 516294230 5120 598849128 4466 655525596 6581 662545007 626 685824016 277 689526518 30 910366057 576 910366101 780 1028350500 328 2277668623 93 3651788238 61

"upia" solution grid has now 16867 puzzles (733 at the start)
and for the bridge analysis, one threat per solution grid

Code: Select all: rank digits boxbase 30359916 356 2 30371007 146 2 30383362 146 2 30384643 146 2 31495381 146 2 31681493 146 2 31693641 146 2 162014823 458 1 190273228 245 2 516294230 235 1 598849128 458 1 655525596 458 1 662545007 467 1 685824016 128 2 689526518 134 3 910366057 236 3 910366101 236 3 1028350500 129 3 2277668623 356 3 3651788238 248 9

The entire file is not yet in the google drive, I intend to upload it after the next cycles

Website · by **denis_berthier** » Tue Aug 12, 2025 10:36 am

.
I fail to see anything new here and in particular no "tridagon family" that would have anything special wrt to mith's collection.
What I see concretely is a small bunch of 12 puzzles.
None of them is in T&E(3). They're all in T&E(2) and none of them has BxB > 5.
All of them have a tridagon with a single guardian and all of them can be solved with at worst a finned X-wing (+ the tridagon).
.

by **champagne** » Tue Aug 12, 2025 7:23 pm

denis_berthier wrote:.
I fail to see anything new here and in particular no "tridagon family" that would have anything special wrt to mith's collection.
What I see concretely is a small bunch of 12 puzzles.
None of them is in T&E(3). They're all in T&E(2) and none of them has BxB > 5.
All of them have a tridagon with a single guardian and all of them can be solved with at worst a finned X-wing (+ the tridagon).
.

Funny comment on this work. Is missing here the reading of the “target of the project”.

no "tridagon family" that would have anything special wrt to mith's collection.

The main property of a new family is to be
1) Hard in serate well known rating,
2) Not linked to mith’ file.

I am sure that mith have seen many of such puzzles not published due to the “T&E3” check.

I have nothing against the T&E3 property, I am just not interested in it as I am not fun of the back door property. They have no link with the solving paths.

I discarded more than 50% of mith’s file for my project. The easiest of them had a rating 4.5, just above a puzzle for beginners.

My cutoff is skfr 10.5, likely too easy for skill players, but close to the cutoff used in the potential hardest file built many years ago.

The 12 puzzles shown here (out of a file of 47000) comes from my direct scan of solution grids to find “non degenerated pattern”, they are supposed to be good seeds for a vicinity search, that’s it.

None of them is in T&E(3). They're all in T&E(2) and none of them has BxB > 5.

I think that I understood what is T&E(3). In fact, In Sudoku Explainer (2005), Nicolas Juillerat had a “nested one” and a “nested 2” levels very similar in the principles in my opinion, but with a wider set of rules.

When I cloned it in SKFR, I did not implement the “double nested level”. All puzzles are solved by SKFR. This means that the last level in Sudoku Explainer has never been reached.

And I cannot comment on

none of them has BxB > 5.

I just don’t know what is BxB

by **blue** » Sat Aug 16, 2025 8:50 am

Hi champagne,

Here's a short path ... {-1,+2}, {-2,+2}, {-2,+2} ... from your 8th puzzle (of 12), to one of mith's puzzles.

Code: Select all: .2.4.67...........789........53..8...38....92.7......5..2.7.95...7.3.2.8.9.....3.;118;30384643;g107W96MWKZg22 PGE -M SE .2.4.67...........789........53..8...38....92.7......5..2.7.95...7.3.2.8.9.....3. T&E(2) 11.7/1.2/1.2 11.7/1.2/1.2 .2.4.67............891.......53..8...38..7.92.7......5..2.7.95...7.3.2.8.9.....3. T&E(2) 10.4/1.2/1.2 10.4/1.2/1.2 .2.4.67......8.....891.......53......38..7.92.7......5..2...95...7.3.2.8.9..5..3. T&E(2) 10.1/1.2/1.2 9.3/1.2/1.2 .2.4.6.......8.3...891.......53......38..7.92.7.........2...95...7.3.2.8.9..5..37 T&E(3) 11.7/1.2/1.2 10.3/1.2/1.2

The intermediate puzzles have a tridagon (after T&E(1)), but they don't pass your ratings cutoff.
Neither does the T&E(3) puzzle, for that matter.

by **champagne** » Sat Aug 16, 2025 6:54 pm

congratulations,

this is likely not done in blind mode,
we bridge from solution grid rank 30384643
to solution grid rank 1104179066
through solution grid rank 95258249

(I did not check yet if this is always in min lexical mode)

I am curious to know how you selected the source and the target.

This shows that bridge could be a common situation, hidden by the filters (T&E3 skfr >=10.5)...

The problem in blind mode is that the vicinity gives millions of puzzles to rate despite all checks done to avoid redundancy.

How you chose the source/target would be interesting.

So far, I have a lot of work to close ongoing tasks to fill all the time that I can allocate to this project.

The New Sudoku Players' Forum

Upia family

Upia family

Start status for "upia" family

Re: Upia family

Re: Upia family

Re: Upia family

Re: Upia family