Thirty Six Clue Puzzle

Post puzzles for others to solve here.

Re: Thirty Six Clue Puzzle

Postby SpAce » Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:42 am

Hi yzfwsf,

yzfwsf wrote:
denis_berthier wrote:z-chain[5]: c6n5{r5 r3} - r1c5{n5 n2} - r1c9{n2 n8} - b9n8{r7c9 r9c7} - c7n5{r9 .} ==> r5c9 ≠ 5

Your chain symbol will hide the details.

Absolutely correct. You can freely ignore Denis' denials and distortions. They have nothing to do with the reality.

I have the same chain in my solver, which looks very complicated.

The pattern you displayed is essentially the same, but not exactly. Since Denis can't or won't accept such essential equivalences, you should stick to exact ones in order to preempt his false claims. It won't stop him, of course, but at least it removes any last hint of credibility from those claims (at least for those who are capable of checking and understanding the facts).

Cell Forcing Chain: Each candidate in r1c9 true in turn will all lead r5c9<>5
2r1c9 - r1c5 = (2-5)r3c6 = r5c6 - 5r5c9
5r1c9 - 5r5c9
8r1c9 - r7c9 = (8-5)r9c7 = r4c7 - 5r5c9

There are two slight problems with that if you want to compare it with Denis' z-chain fully accurately. First, one of its csp-variables (SIS) is different, so it's not depicting exactly the same pattern (even though it effectively does). Second, it's written as a kraken (verity) instead of a contradiction net (which is what Denis' z-chains are), which of course is just a different perspective for the same thing. (Interestingly, Denis thinks contradictions are more elegant than "reasoning by cases", while most of the rest of us see it the other way around in the sudoku context.)

Both are inconsequential differences that shouldn't make any difference to anyone who understands such equivalences, but in this case that can't be assumed, because anything you say can and will be used against you (or at least against me).

Your kraken translates to this triangular matrix (5x5 TM):

Code: Select all
c6n5| 5r5c6 5r3c6
b2n2| . . . 2r3c6 2r1c5
r1c9| 5r1c9 . . . 2r1c9 8r1c9
b9n8| . . . . . . . . . 8r7c9 8r9c7
c7n5| 5r4c7 . . . . . . . . . 5r9c7
===================================
     -5r5c9

The only difference between that and Denis' z-chain is the second SIS (csp-variable) which should be r1c5 instead of b2n2. The exact matrix (5x5 TM) for his z-chain:

Code: Select all
c6n5| 5r5c6 5r3c6
r1c5| . . . 5r1c5 2r1c5
r1c9| 5r1c9 . . . 2r1c9 8r1c9
b9n8| . . . . . . . . . 8r7c9 8r9c7
c7n5| 5r4c7 . . . . . . . . . 5r9c7
===================================
     -5r5c9

There are several perspectives to see and write the logic contained in that TM. Denis' z-chain is one of them, depicting it as a contradiction net (but like you said, hiding essential details making it look simpler than it is). Your kraken-cell is another, if the one csp-variable is changed:

2r1c9 - (2=5)r1c5 - r3c6 = r5c6 - 5r5c9
5r1c9 - 5r5c9
8r1c9 - r7c9 = (8-5)r9c7 = r4c7 - 5r5c9

However, to make it match more closely the logic of the z-chain, it should be written as a contradiction net. Simply flipping it around won't do, though, because that would put the contradiction in the cell r1c9 (which of course works too, but it's not the same):

Code: Select all
                                         [!]r1c9
                                         ||
         .- (5)r5c6 = r3c6 - (5=2)r1c5 - (2)r1c9
        /                                ||
(5)r5c9 -------------------------------- (5)r1c9
        \                                ||
         `- (5)r4c7 = (5-8)r9c7 = r7c9 - (8)r1c9

=> -5r5c9

In the z-chain the contradiction is in the column 5c7. Thus, the exactly equivalent contradiction net is this:

Code: Select all
         .------------------------- (5)r1c9
        /                           ||
(5)r5c9 - r5c6 = r3c6 - (5=2)r1c5 - (2)r1c9            (5)r[!]c7
        \                           ||                 ||
         \                          (8)r1c9 - r7c9 = (8-5)r9c7
          \                                            ||
           '-------------------------------------------(5)r4c7

=> -5r5c9

In any case, the TM is the most neutral way to depict the pattern, allowing many different interpretations. Yet no matter how it's read, the result is a net of some kind. It doesn't change anything that Denis refuses to accept that fact and insists on calling it a simple chain that is "in essence" equivalent to a basic AIC. That's ridiculous, of course, even in the case of of such a simple z-chain with just one z-candidate. The simplest ways to write it as an AIC require nesting:

(5)r1c9 = [(5)r5c6 = r3c6 - (5=2)r1c5 - (2=8)r1c9 - r7c9 = (8-5)r9c7 = (5)r4c7] => -5 r5c9

or:

(5)r5c6 = r3c6 - (5=2)r1c5 - r1c9 = [(5=8)r1c9 - r7c9 = (8-5)r9c7 = (5)r4c7] => -5 r5c9

That's not trivial logic, and writing it as a z-chain doesn't change that fact in any way. It only hides the complexity by abstracting away the z-candidate (5r1c9).

PS. Denis, you can freely spread your ridiculous lies and red warnings about me as much as you like. Anyone with a few brain cells should easily see who's speaking the truth and who's gaslighting. With that latest stunt you lost the last bit of respect I had for you. I don't think I'm the only one either. (I don't much care about which way the leadership of this forum sees it. I'm fully prepared to get kicked out, if that's what it takes to defend the truth and take a stand against your all-encompassing and toxic narcissism.)
-SpAce-: Show
Code: Select all
   *             |    |               |    |    *
        *        |=()=|    /  _  \    |=()=|               *
            *    |    |   |-=( )=-|   |    |      *
     *                     \  ¯  /                   *   

"If one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic narrow view of the Jedi."
User avatar
SpAce
 
Posts: 2674
Joined: 22 May 2017

Re: Thirty Six Clue Puzzle

Postby denis_berthier » Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:16 am

WARNING: TO ALL

CONSIDERING SpAce's CONTINUED CAMPAIGN OF HARASSMENT, DISINFORMATION AND SLANDERING, I HAVE STOPPED ALL COMMUNICATION WITH HIM.

ANY TIME HE MENTIONS MY NAME OR MY WORK, I PUT THIS REMINDER.


It should be obvious that his vain and contorted tries to identify a z-chain with a forcing contradiction net in his above post fail miserably. Two patterns allowing the same elimination doesn't mean they are the same.

As for the final personal insults, I've done what they deserve: report them. I invite any of you to do the same each time he loses his mind.
denis_berthier
2010 Supporter
 
Posts: 1983
Joined: 19 June 2007
Location: Paris

Re: Thirty Six Clue Puzzle

Postby SpAce » Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:54 pm

denis_berthier wrote:Two patterns allowing the same elimination doesn't mean they are the same.

True. But since they happen to be the same exact pattern with the same exact logic, that argument falls apart. The only "difference" is that in your imaginary abstraction the z-candidate doesn't supposedly exist, but in the reality it obviously does -- with all the related complexity.

As for the final personal insults

Just an obvious fact. Was I the first one to call you out for it? If so, it was about time someone did.

I've done what they deserve: report them. I invite any of you to do the same each time he loses his mind.

By all means. I'm actually curious to see if I get punished -- once again -- for a small taste of something that you've been doing freely since at least 2008 to pretty much all that have dared to ask unpleasant questions. I'm pretty sure that you possess the longest and the most severe list of delivered personal insults on this forum, and I've been wondering why the admins have enabled that sort of behavior for so long. It has obviously inflated your ego and sense of entitlement even more, making it impossible to debate anything in a civilized manner.
User avatar
SpAce
 
Posts: 2674
Joined: 22 May 2017

Previous

Return to Puzzles