For Pappocom.
My husband bought me The Times Sudoku tabletop version for Christmas and it's a handsome thing, excellent in all respects. It's licenced by the Times and has 25 puzzles in each of the Easy, Mild, Difficult and Fiendish categories. From the packaging, it appears that it will also be distributed in Australia and New Zealand as well as in some non-English speaking countries.
I'm assuming that the puzzles are Pappocom and that the categories are exactly the same as those in the newspaper but I found myself wondering when I completed the first of the Fiendish, admittedly after some "head scratching", without the need for any "pencilmarks". Are the categories the same as the paper's and, hence, are the Fiendish the equivalent of the Pappocom Hard generated by the program?
The Times Sudoku - tabletop version
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The Times Sudoku - tabletop version
by stocku » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:32 pm
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by stocku » Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:27 pm
Oh that's a real shame - it's such a nice artefact but now I shall feel disloyal when I play against it. What a pity if they've dealt you a card from the bottom of the deck.
I never quite know what to call this sort of game - "board game" always puts me in mind of over-long Sunday afternoons, rolling too many dice for one's ultimate sanity, a la Monopoly. You could say that, in many respects, this one more closely resembles (the smaller versions of) Scrabble - a rectangular layout, neat square tiles and a tile-holding grid. It all comes very easily to the hand and would be perfect for train, boat or plane, with the "walled" seating for each tile within the grid and the close fitting lid ensuring that what you have when you re-open it is exactly what you had when you closed it.
I never quite know what to call this sort of game - "board game" always puts me in mind of over-long Sunday afternoons, rolling too many dice for one's ultimate sanity, a la Monopoly. You could say that, in many respects, this one more closely resembles (the smaller versions of) Scrabble - a rectangular layout, neat square tiles and a tile-holding grid. It all comes very easily to the hand and would be perfect for train, boat or plane, with the "walled" seating for each tile within the grid and the close fitting lid ensuring that what you have when you re-open it is exactly what you had when you closed it.
- stocku
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by stocku » Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:37 am
Wayne - as ever in life, what goes around comes around.
Having completed the first two, and the last one to test whether they become progressively harder within the category which they don't seem to do, of the 25 Times Su Doku tabletop version Fiendish category puzzles, I slowly ground to a halt on "Fiendish 3 (30)", the figure in parentheses being the number of clues.
Not being a quitter by nature, but nevertheless having run through the full range of techniques, up to and including forcing chains, without being able to "free the log jam", I waved the white flag and dubbed (correctly because I treble-checked it) the original puzzle into Pappocom. No prizes for guessing that the program said " Not verified. The clues do not form a valid puzzle".
In view of your "lovers' tiff" with the Times, you are permitted a wry smile or two!!! Will you tell them to use a reputable source in future, ie yourself, or shall I?
I like the tabletop version, so let's just hope that the remainder of the puzzles are solvable without recourse to the brute force that I'm now going to have to resort to on this one.
Having completed the first two, and the last one to test whether they become progressively harder within the category which they don't seem to do, of the 25 Times Su Doku tabletop version Fiendish category puzzles, I slowly ground to a halt on "Fiendish 3 (30)", the figure in parentheses being the number of clues.
Not being a quitter by nature, but nevertheless having run through the full range of techniques, up to and including forcing chains, without being able to "free the log jam", I waved the white flag and dubbed (correctly because I treble-checked it) the original puzzle into Pappocom. No prizes for guessing that the program said " Not verified. The clues do not form a valid puzzle".
In view of your "lovers' tiff" with the Times, you are permitted a wry smile or two!!! Will you tell them to use a reputable source in future, ie yourself, or shall I?
I like the tabletop version, so let's just hope that the remainder of the puzzles are solvable without recourse to the brute force that I'm now going to have to resort to on this one.
- stocku
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by stocku » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:14 am
Pi - I'm sorry for the delay in replying but, when you have a one year-old little person and a two week-old tiny person being fed Nature's way, a free hand and sufficient free time are a rarity, even when you have a very considerate and helpful mate!!
To now move the story forward, I've deliberately avoided any kind of pencilmarker/solver in my sudoku life so far, because I might find it tempting to "cheat" on a hard puzzle, which I could in fact solve if I "gritted my teeth" and kept attacking it on my own. Also, I think a self-taught lesson is always the best kind. In this case however, to prove my point that the puzzle was "broken", I decided to download and use Angus J's program. Sure enough, SS said "INVALID PUZZLE - 52 solutions".
Wayne - Whatever the cause, you might feel like telling the Times as and when you are next in contact with them?
To now move the story forward, I've deliberately avoided any kind of pencilmarker/solver in my sudoku life so far, because I might find it tempting to "cheat" on a hard puzzle, which I could in fact solve if I "gritted my teeth" and kept attacking it on my own. Also, I think a self-taught lesson is always the best kind. In this case however, to prove my point that the puzzle was "broken", I decided to download and use Angus J's program. Sure enough, SS said "INVALID PUZZLE - 52 solutions".
Wayne - Whatever the cause, you might feel like telling the Times as and when you are next in contact with them?
- stocku
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by stocku » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:14 pm
Wayne - Thanks for your action.
If the Times is in fact in the mire here, because its name is on the game, then further checks I have now had the time to carry out will not improve the mood. I solved Fiendish 1 and Fiendish 2 before I hit problems, and SS now also gives them the all-clear. As I said above, SS says Fiendish 3 has 52 solutions and is thus invalid, but SS now also says that Fiendish 4 has 17 solutions and Fiendish 5 has 21 solutions, so they are both deemed to be invalid as well.
I also solved Fiendish 25 without a problem, so that is probably OK, but I will run a SS check on that in due course. In the meantime, I will work sequentially through the remainder, with "Angus at my side", and see what transpires.
I have now myself sent an email to the Times puzzles, suggesting that they continue to monitor the thread.
PS I have learnt in life to listen for the creak of the bow not the rush of the arrow. If therefore there is in fact a more than minor problem with the puzzles, some form of prompt disclaimer disassociating Pappocom from them might be appropriate, before you are tarred with the same brush and receive any undeserved flak.
If the Times is in fact in the mire here, because its name is on the game, then further checks I have now had the time to carry out will not improve the mood. I solved Fiendish 1 and Fiendish 2 before I hit problems, and SS now also gives them the all-clear. As I said above, SS says Fiendish 3 has 52 solutions and is thus invalid, but SS now also says that Fiendish 4 has 17 solutions and Fiendish 5 has 21 solutions, so they are both deemed to be invalid as well.
I also solved Fiendish 25 without a problem, so that is probably OK, but I will run a SS check on that in due course. In the meantime, I will work sequentially through the remainder, with "Angus at my side", and see what transpires.
I have now myself sent an email to the Times puzzles, suggesting that they continue to monitor the thread.
PS I have learnt in life to listen for the creak of the bow not the rush of the arrow. If therefore there is in fact a more than minor problem with the puzzles, some form of prompt disclaimer disassociating Pappocom from them might be appropriate, before you are tarred with the same brush and receive any undeserved flak.
- stocku
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- Joined: 29 December 2005
by stocku » Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:54 pm
Wayne - Oh dear, not good news I'm afraid.
I have now checked the first 10 of the 25 Fiendish puzzles using SS and 7 of them, 3 to 6 inclusive and 8 to 10 inclusive are invalid, the number of solutions per SS being 52, 17, 21, 206, 72, 3 and 9 respectively. The only saving grace is that I have also checked Fiendish 25 as promised, the third of the 3 that I managed to solve, and it is given the all-clear by Angus.
Unless I have gone completely awry myself, and an independent verification will settle that, I think the sample is large enough for us now to be able to categorise the problem as serious. In view of this, the Times must surely need to check not only all the puzzles in the tabletop version but also any others from the same source. Then, some form of remedial action has to be contemplated.
With the same proviso about my not having personally gone awry, and I almost hope that I have, I sympathise with the people out there unwittingly struggling to solve the broken puzzles.
I have now checked the first 10 of the 25 Fiendish puzzles using SS and 7 of them, 3 to 6 inclusive and 8 to 10 inclusive are invalid, the number of solutions per SS being 52, 17, 21, 206, 72, 3 and 9 respectively. The only saving grace is that I have also checked Fiendish 25 as promised, the third of the 3 that I managed to solve, and it is given the all-clear by Angus.
Unless I have gone completely awry myself, and an independent verification will settle that, I think the sample is large enough for us now to be able to categorise the problem as serious. In view of this, the Times must surely need to check not only all the puzzles in the tabletop version but also any others from the same source. Then, some form of remedial action has to be contemplated.
With the same proviso about my not having personally gone awry, and I almost hope that I have, I sympathise with the people out there unwittingly struggling to solve the broken puzzles.
- stocku
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- Joined: 29 December 2005
by gfroyle » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:49 am
Post one of them here...
There are numerous professional and amateur mathematicians on this forum, who have independently coded solution-counting programs.
If you post just one, then there should be no copyright issues.
Gordon
There are numerous professional and amateur mathematicians on this forum, who have independently coded solution-counting programs.
If you post just one, then there should be no copyright issues.
Gordon
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by stocku » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:04 am
Gordon - if only every minnit had a few more seconds innit!!
However, little M has finally gone into "snooze mode" long enough for me to have my first try at posting a coded puzzle to the forum, using the 30 clues for the "worst" of the 7 invalid puzzles viz Fiendish 6 with 206 solutions per Angus. It all seems to look correct on the "Preview" screen, so here goes.
Could you or A N Other independently count and verify the invalidity please.
However, little M has finally gone into "snooze mode" long enough for me to have my first try at posting a coded puzzle to the forum, using the 30 clues for the "worst" of the 7 invalid puzzles viz Fiendish 6 with 206 solutions per Angus. It all seems to look correct on the "Preview" screen, so here goes.
- Code: Select all
*-----------*
|...|.7.|..3|
|2.7|..6|.4.|
|..3|...|7..|
|---+---+---|
|4.1|2..|53.|
|..8|4.5|2..|
|.52|..1|6.4|
|---+---+---|
|..5|...|3..|
|.3.|6..|4.2|
|6..|.2.|...|
*-----------*
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| 1589 14689 469 | 1589 7 2489 | 189 125689 3 |
| 2 189 7 | 13589 13589 6 | 189 4 1589 |
| 1589 14689 3 | 1589 14589 2489 | 7 125689 15689 |
|-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------|
| 4 679 1 | 2 689 789 | 5 3 789 |
| 379 679 8 | 4 369 5 | 2 179 179 |
| 379 5 2 | 3789 389 1 | 6 789 4 |
|-------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------|
| 1789 124789 5 | 1789 1489 4789 | 3 16789 16789 |
| 1789 3 9 | 6 1589 789 | 4 15789 2 |
| 6 14789 49 | 135789 2 34789 | 189 15789 15789 |
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Could you or A N Other independently count and verify the invalidity please.
- stocku
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- Joined: 29 December 2005
by stocku » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:59 am
Moschopulus - tks v. much.
Wayne - this looks conclusive. I'll send another email to the Times and ask them to say exactly what they intend to do about it. Am I right that there is also a full-sized Times Su Doku board game, as opposed to the portable one my example of which has prompted this thread, which may also be "corrupted"?
Why will it not surprise me if they try to "spin" their way out of all this?
Wayne - this looks conclusive. I'll send another email to the Times and ask them to say exactly what they intend to do about it. Am I right that there is also a full-sized Times Su Doku board game, as opposed to the portable one my example of which has prompted this thread, which may also be "corrupted"?
Why will it not surprise me if they try to "spin" their way out of all this?
- stocku
- Posts: 22
- Joined: 29 December 2005
23 posts
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