The NoFish List

Advanced methods and approaches for solving Sudoku puzzles

The NoFish List

Postby David P Bird » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:46 pm

Split off of a new (?) view of fish (naked or hidden). JasonLion-Admin
Blue wrote: The two "r8c9" diagrams that I showed, were twists on two such fish:
r33c2477b4\r56689c399b199 and
r34c247b33\r2689c38999b59.

Agreed, very impressive, and succeeds in blowing my speculations about the relationships between NxN fish, NxM fish, and Nets to pieces.

How well does your method cope with the puzzles in the < NoFish collection > ?

David
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Re: a new (?) view of fish (naked or hidden)

Postby blue » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:26 am

daj95376 wrote:
blue wrote:I have a piece of code that's telling me that the minimum rank for an Obi-Wahn fish for the r8c9 exclusion, is 4, and that the minimum number of base sectors for such a fish, is 7. (It also says that 7 is the minimum number of base sectors for an Obi-Wahn fish of any rank).

The two "r8c9" diagrams that I showed, were twists on two such fish: r33c2477b4\r56689c399b199 and r34c247b33\r2689c38999b59.

Impressive! An NxM fish for an elimination that isn't found by traditional fish patterns.

These do have interpretations as remotely finned fish -- which, I think, was the thrust of Sudtyro2's post.
I won't pretend to know whether "found by traditional methods" applies here.

For the 1st: r33c2477b4\r56689c399b199 => r8c9<>8
Code: Select all
c24b4\r589
  remote fins:
    r2c2-r3c3=r3c9-
    r46c3-r3c3=r3c9-
    r6c23-r6c7=r79c7-
    (note: r6c3 is listed twice)

For the 2nd: r34c247b33\r2689c38999b59 => r8c9<>8
Code: Select all
r4c24\r89b5
  remote fins:
    r2c2-r2c8=r3c9-
    r4c3-r3c3=r3c9-
    r4c8-r2c8=r3c9-
    r6c2-r6c7=r79c7-

##########

David P Bird wrote:How well does your method cope with the puzzles in the < NoFish collection > ?

For tarek's list (NoFish22-NoFish563), it says that for the specified eliminations, no Obi-Wahn fish exist.

I should note that the way I read tarek's post, the template eliminations would be apparent after placing the givens and performing the initial "line of sight" eliminations. I verified that for the first few puzzles, and then assumed it was true for the entire list.

For the earlier list (including the PMs in the post that follows), it finds Obi-Whan fish for just a few cases.

NoFish9: r2c36677b49\r11667999c248b8 => r9c4<>7 (rank 4)
NoFish21: r27c77b2\r1c36b3999 => r8c89<>2 (rank 2)

NoFish4: Obi-Whan fish for r9c8<>9, but not for r4c5<>5, r9c7<>5, or r9c3<>3.
NoFish5: Obi-Whan fish for r8c7<>9, r7c4<>9 and r7c5<>9, but not for r4c8<>5, r9c7<>5, or r9c3<>9.
Correction: NoFish5 was OK, I had used the wrong starting point.
NoFish14: Obi-Whan fish for r3c7<>8 (and r3c8<>8), but not for r3c7<>5 (or r3c8<>5).

For NoFish14, the r3c8 eliminations aren't shown in the PM diagram in the referenced post.
NoFish4 has been mentioned as having "issues", possibly, depending on which version is listed.
Last edited by blue on Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: NoFish22-NoFish563 list

Postby tarek » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:22 pm

blue wrote:For tarek's list (NoFish22-NoFish563), it says that for the specified eliminations, no Obi-Wahn fish exist.

The original list with eliminations was re-posted as it was lost with the old forum along with many posts that analysed these puzzles. Several fish have been found (Mainly large NxN fish, NxN fish with remote fins & NxM fish).

I have to say that ronk sent me -around the time it was originally posted- a list of corrections because it transpired that some of the eliminations can't be obtained by single-digit templates. The list needs reposting with the correct template eliminations before any attempts to re-analyse the puzzles are made.

The list itself is a collection of special puzzles with the 1st elimination being a single-digit template elimination that did not have to appear -around the time of original posting- an NxN fish to explain the elimination.
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Re: a new (?) view of fish (naked or hidden)

Postby blue » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:32 pm

Hi tarek,

Thanks for the heads up.
If you run across fish for any of the specified eliminations in the current list, would you post them please ?

TIA,
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Re: a new (?) view of fish (naked or hidden)

Postby tarek » Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:07 am

blue wrote:Hi tarek,
Thanks for the heads up.
If you run across fish for any of the specified eliminations in the current list, would you post them please ?

No Problem,

Becuase It turned up that MY template eliminations were not absolutely correct, It will need somebody else to run through the list again and post the correct eliminations. There was a corrected version that was lost with the old forum and unfortunately I don't have a copy of. Even the original list was sent to me by ronk & ttt as I didn't keep a copy.

Unfortunately all the fish that were caught have been lost with the old forum but I'll post any that I come accross.

Tarek
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Re: a new (?) view of fish (naked or hidden)

Postby David P Bird » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:42 am

Here's the copy of the NoFish collection I took but I don't know when (it's in a working spreadsheet). It's clearly from another source though as the notation order at the end of the lines is different.
Hidden Text: Show
......7...2.1...3...9.5..8...89......7...45..3......1.6....84...1..7..9...53....2#r4c1<>4#NoFish039
......9..5..4..73..6..7...23...6....21.9..5....4....8..2.8.......7.5.4..9....3.1.#r7c6<>6#NoFish040
......9..5..8...3.....41..2..6.9....1.....7...2...3.8...8..2...34.6..5...9..7..1.#r5c8<>5#NoFish041
......9..7..6...3..1..8...2.3..9....8.41..7..5....4.8...2.4....6....35...8.7...1.#r1c5<>2#NoFish042
.....3....4.7.....6...8.1....5..2....7.4..9..8...1..3......5....6..9..8.1..6..7.2#r1c9<>5#NoFish043
.....4...3...5.9...6.8..12.....1.....2.7...3...9..678...89.....4...2.5...7...3.1.#r1c1<>5#NoFish044
.....5...7..2..1...8.39..2.1..8.......6.7.9...4.....3...2.6.....3.1..7..9....4.8.#r6c9<>6#NoFish045
.....79....48...3..6..1...21..2........56.7...9.....8...7......8..9..5..23...4.1.#r6c9<>6#NoFish046
.....81..4..3..9...5..7..2.8..4.......1..57...2.....3...3.8....9..6..5...7...1.8.#r8c9<>4#NoFish047
.....9...6..2......3..5.8..35..4......83..1..9....7.2..........2....19..84.6...3.#r1c9<>5#NoFish048
....1.......5..9...8...4.3.5...3.7...9.4.6.8...4.....2.3.8...1...6..75..2...9....#r1c3<>2#NoFish049
....4....6..9..1...3...7.2...8.5....7..4.29...5.....3.4....5....2.3..7....9.6..8.#r1c9<>8#NoFish050
....5....7..6...3..8..3.1..3...92....4....9....51...8.17.3.......6.4.7.......9..2#r1c1<>2#NoFish051
...1..7..9...6..8..5...3..22.34..5.........1..7..8...3..8..7....6.2..4..1......9.#r5c5<>9#NoFish052
...1..9..6......3..1...8.....5.6.7...9.....8.3....4..2..4..3...2...9.5...8.7...1.#r5c79<>1#NoFish053
...2.....3...8......4..71...6..9....8..4...3...1..5..22..6..3...7...89....5.1..8.#r3c4<>3#NoFish054
...2.....6...1..3..5...79..1...4.7....9....8..3......2..732....4.....5...8...9.1.#r4c3<>2#NoFish055
...2..8..5...6..3..9...1....1..7.9....3..5.8.6....4..2.2..3......4..97.....8...1.#r7c3<>8#NoFish056
...2..9..1...8..3..47..5.....49..7..5.6..1.8.........26....4....8....5....2.3..1.#r8c9<>9#NoFish057
...2..9..5....87...4..9..3..7..1......34..58...6.....2..2.6.....8...34..9......1.#r1c6<>6#NoFish058
...2..9..7...5..3..4...1.....1.6.7...3.....8.9....4..2..4..7....2..9.5..3..8...1.#r45c9<>4#NoFish059
...2..9..8...1..3..6...4.....3.4.7...1.....8.4....6..22....3.....7.8.5....49...1.#r5c9<>6#NoFish060
...3..9..5......8..7..64..28..........2..17...4..9...3..6.7....3..4..5...9...2.1.#r4c8<>5#NoFish061
...4.....9.....1...78.5..3....9.....6...1...2.3...8....1..2..8.2....79....43.....#r4c9<>4#NoFish062
...4..1..6...5..3..7...89....47......8..9....1...4...25....2....3..6.7....91...8.#r3c1<>2#NoFish063
...4..7..1...5..8..3...9..2...87.5...6.....1......2..3..2......8...6.4..75.1...9.#r5c3<>3#NoFish064
...4..9..7....538.....3...2.9.1.......4..27..6...8...3..5.9....8....7....3.6...1.#r1c2<>1#NoFish065
...5......8...49....7.1..3.....3....1.42.87...9......2.4..6.5....29...8.3....7.1.#r1c12<>2#NoFish066
...5.....2.9..8.3..7..2.1...3.6.......4..59......1...25...9.....6...47....13...8.#r7c78<>2#NoFish067
...5..7.......8.3..1..6....4..7...8..3...251...6..9..2..83......7..2.1..5....4.9.#r12c5<>1#NoFish068
...5..9..1....4.8..7..6...29...8......4...7...5...2..3..8.9.....2.3..5..6....7.1.#r4c6<>1#NoFish069
...6.....8...5.9...7...1.3.4...3.....5.9.478...1.....2...2......6..8.5..9....7.1.#r1c3<>2#NoFish070
...6..1..5......3..84...9...3.......9....57....1.8...2.6.9.......7..45..2...3..8.#r4c9<>6#NoFish071
...6..9..2...4..3..7...5....5..3.7....9....8.4....1..2..8.9.....6..125.....7...1.#r1c9<>8#NoFish072
...7.....1.7.5..3..8...29..6...3.7....91...8......4..2..3.8....4..9..5...7...6.1.#r9c7<>2#NoFish073
...7.....2...1.9...5...4.3..8.6.....3...9.78...1.....2.6.2.......9..35..7...8..1.#r1c3<>6#NoFish074
...7..23.8...1.....4...9...7...5.9....63...8..1......2.9..4......56..7..3....8.1.#r6c6<>4#NoFish075
...7..9....5.1.....6...4.8.4..3.......1.487..8...9...2.9.6...1.7...2.5....8.....3#r1c8<>6#NoFish076
...7..9...86.4.........5.3..6..1......3..97..49.2...8..7.3.........6.51......8..2#r7c9<>6#NoFish077
...7..9..1....5.8..3..4...2...2.......6...7...4..8...3..7.9.....2.4..5..86.....1.#r4c6<>1#NoFish078
...7..9..1...2..3..4...8.....9.1.7..5...6..8.6..3....2.3...4.....2...5..7..9...1.#r5c9<>4#NoFish079
...8..1..6...9..3...2..4.......6.7...9.5...8...4..1..2...3..5...8..2..1.4....7.9.#r12c9<>4#NoFish080
...9..1...2...5.....7.3..8.8..........6..49.....1....2.9..6.7..5..2...1...4..8..3#r5c1<>1#NoFish081
...9..1..6.7....3..4..2......5.1.....8...59..3....7..2..2..4...1...3.7...6.5...8.#r9c9<>9#NoFish082
..1...7...6.3...8.....4...23....7....8.9..5....56...1...28......7..1..9.4....5..3#r8c9<>4#NoFish083
..1...9...5.6...8.3....4..2..9......8..9.3.......5.7..6..4....3.2...9.1...7.8.5..#r1c2<>7#NoFish084
..12.....5...7.9...4.....3.6..1..........938...8.5...29..4......2....7....6..3.1.#r7c2<>3#NoFish085
..13..9..5..6...3..7..4...2.....1...6..85.7....29...8...92......4....5..8......1.#r9c9<>4#NoFish086
..16.........4.9...2...5.8..5..3.7..3......1...89....2.9.7.......4..15..6...8...3#r2c8<>3#NoFish087
..16.....2.....9...8...7.3..4....3..9....5.8...7.4...2..64......3...87......2.51.#r6c6<>6#NoFish088
..18.....7......3..2..5.9..5...4......3...78..6...1..2.9..2......56..8..4....7.1.#r23c3<>8#NoFish089
..2......3..4......7....12.4..1......6...59....8.7..3.2..6......5..1.7....9..3.8.#r7c3<>4#NoFish090
..2......5..9..8...6..37.....84..3...9....1..3.6.5..2..7...2.....4.8.9.....6...3.#r2c9<>7#NoFish091
..26.....7...5..3......19..5..3..7...9....18...6.4...2..39.....4...2.....8...7.1.#r12c2<>1#NoFish092
..27.....8...3.....3...91..7..6..9.......5.3...4.8...2.1.3.......6.4.7.......1.8.#r5c9<>1#NoFish093
..29.....7...3.....8....1..9..4......5....83...1.7...2..42.....3...5.9...6...1.8.#r12c6<>8#NoFish094
..29.....8....51...7..4..3.1..46.....4...89.....7....2..5......9...1.7...6...3.8.#r7c4<>2#NoFish095
..3......9..6..1...5..7..2...4..5...5...1.9...7.2...3...1..4...2..9..7...6..3..8.#r1c9<>4#NoFish096
..3.5....7..8...2..9....1..1..4.......82..9...4...7.3...5.4.....6.3..7..2....9.8.#r5c9<>5#NoFish097
..32.....8......3..9..7.1..4..5.......2..89......1...2..6.3....5..4..7...1...9.8.#r7c6<>2#NoFish098
..34.....2.....9...7..1..8..6...5...9...7.1....83....2.4.6.......5..27......8..13#r1c1<>1#NoFish099
..37..9..1......8..5..4...28..........96..7...6.2....3..4.6.....2.8..5..7....9.1.#r4c6<>1#NoFish100
..4..5...7..9..1...8..3..2...68......2..1.9..1...7..3...5..4....9..2.7.........8.#r9c9<>5#NoFish101
..42.5...9......3..7..8.1..8...6......5...9.....7....2..6.2....1..9..7...3...4.8.#r4c3<>2#NoFish102
..46.....8.....9...2....73...1..3...9...5..8..7..4...26....8....5.9..2....3.7..1.#r2c4<>2#NoFish103
..49..7......5..8..1...6..2...6..5...7.28..1.9.......3..3.......6..2.4..8..1...9.#r3c1<>3#NoFish104
..49..7..1...3..8.....65..27.....5....92...1......6..3..3.7.....6....4..8....1.9.#r79c9<>6#NoFish105
..5......9..4...2..8..971..1...2.....7.6..9....4....3..6.1.......3.5.7..2....3.8.#r1c79<>3#NoFish106
..5..49..7..6...3..1..3...24.............97...2.1...8..6....2....83..5..9....7.1.#r45c5<>2#NoFish107
..51.....8...6..3..4...79..9.....7....2.3..8......5..2..7.2....3..8..5...6...4.1.#r1c6<>2#NoFish108
..52.....1...8..3..7...49......5.7...4.....8...9..1..2..87.....3...9.5...6..3..1.#r5c3<>2#NoFish109
..54.....8...1..3..7...29..1...5.7...6..2..8....3....22..6......3..9.5....4..8.1.#r7c9<>4#NoFish110
..57.....4...8.1...6..5..3...7.1.......3..9...8...5..2..9..2....5.6..7..3...4..8.#r5c3<>2#NoFish111
..6...8..1..7...3..9..4...2.4.3.....7...2.9....5....8.2..9......3...57....8.6..1.#r7c6<>8#NoFish112
..6.7....9..4..1...8.3...2.7..6.......5..8....1....93...2.5.....3.1..7..4....9.8.#r4c6,r6c9<>5#NoFish113
..61..7...9...4.8.3.......2.4...........3.5..2....8.1.8.......3.7.5..89...1..64..#r4c5<>2#NoFish114
..63..9..1......8..7..5...2..5.2.....9.4..7..4.......3..2..8...8...7.5...3.9...1.#r6c7<>8#NoFish115
..64.....8...1..3..5...29....4.5.7.....6...8.1.......2....94...2.....5...3.8...1.#r5c9<>4#NoFish116
..7..9...3..4......1..2.8....8.......9..3.1..4...5..2...5..7...2...1.9...6.5...3.#r2c9<>7#NoFish117
..7.4.9..6..1...3..5......2..89.....3...2.....9.7...8..2...5.....43..7..8...6..1.#r6c9<>5#NoFish118
..74.....2......3..8..5.1..1...7......46..9...3......2..9.4....6..1..7...5...2.8.#r4c9<>4#NoFish119
..74.....8.....9...2..5..3.3..9......1...738...4.....2..52......9..3.7..6....8.1.#r7c5<>4#NoFish120
..76.....8...1..3..5....9..1...4.7....653..8..9......2..3.7....4..8..5...2.....1.#r9c9<>9#NoFish121
..78.........2..3..9...51..5..6..9....1..7.8.....4...2.6..1......89..3..4....37..#r1c2<>2#NoFish122
..79.....6...2..3..1...58..4..7..9.........8...3.1...2.8.4.......9...7..2....3.1.#r8c6<>8#NoFish123
..8......3..7..1..69..5..2..5..2.......1..9..4....8.3.1...4.....3...9.....23..78.#r5c9<>7#NoFish124
..8......6......2..7.23.1...1...7.....5.2.9.....4..83...3.5.7..9....13...4.....8.#r1c6<>5#NoFish125
..8...1..7......3..9..5...2.1...8.....249....6....19...5..1......4..27..3..6...8.#r4c9<>5#NoFish126
..8...9..6......3..4..7...2.5...4...1....67....39...8..2.4......17..85..9......1.#r12c9<>4#NoFish127
..82.....1...5.9...7...4.3...2.3.7.....6...8.9....1..2.....9....6..7.5..3..8...1.#r7c5<>2#NoFish128
..82.....5.....1...6..9..3.1..4........78.9...7...1..2..2.5.....9.6..7.......3.8.#r9c9<>1#NoFish129
..84.....5...1..3..2...79...1..5.7....4....8.9.......2..6.4....3....25...7.8...1.#r4c9<>4#NoFish130
..86.....9......3..4..5.1..1.3.4.....5.8..9.......7..2..2..3.......1.7..7..9...8.#r1c6<>2#NoFish131
..9......3..7...2..5..4.1...6..8......7..19.....2...3...2.6.7...4...95..1......8.#r1c4<>3#NoFish132
..9..5...8......2..4..6.1...1..24...7.....9....5..8.3..3.4.......2..97..6......8.#r12c9<>4#NoFish133
..9.7....8..6..1...4...592..7.8.....1....4.....6....3.5..9......2...17....3....8.#r7c5<>3#NoFish134
..94..7......3..8..6...1..2....7.5...2.9...1.4..1.6..3..6.......7..8.4..3..5...9.#r45c9<>6#NoFish135
..96..7..6...5..8..3...4..2...7.35...4.....1.2.......3..5.......7..6.4..8..1...9.#r7c1<>3#NoFish136
..98..1..5......3..8..7......7.5.....3.4..9..6....1..2..4..9...1...3.7...6.2...8.#r5c9<>8#NoFish137
.1.4.....5...2.7....9....8..4..3......6..95..8..7...1..3....4......1...2.....2.93#r1c6<>3#NoFish138
.3...89..5......3..4..6...2.9.1.........527..3....4.8...6......2....95...8.7...1.#r5c9<>6#NoFish139
.3..5....1......2..469..8...9.6.......4.3....8....21....5.4.9.......87.....1...3.#r5c9<>5#NoFish140
.4.9.......2.3.........71..7...4.9...64....3...5..1..26.92......3..6.7.......5.8.#r9c9<>1#NoFish141
.5..1......63..........92...1.4.......3.5.8.......7.2...46.....7....21...9..8..3.#r79c1<>2#NoFish142
.5.6..1........38.7...4...2.1..7....2..8..9....4..5..3.6.9.......3..2...8...1.7..#r79c6<>3#NoFish143
.5.9.........2.7....4..8.3.9..6..5...3...4.8.....1...2.8.7..41...6.3....1....5.9.#r1c3<>2#NoFish144
.5.9.........8......7..21..6......3...84..9...1...7..2.841..7...9..3....2....5.8.#r2c9<>3#NoFish145
.6.1.........5..3.8....49..21....7......3..8...5..9..24..8......9...6.....7...51.#r9c9<>3#NoFish146
.6.4.......1..38......9..2...8.1.....5.6.....2....73...4..8......92..1.......593.#r13c1<>3#NoFish147
.6.5..1....9.8.........2.3..2..6.9....61..7....5..4.8..4.9.....8...7.5....1..3..2#r7c1<>3#NoFish148
.7....9....64...3.5....1..2......7..4..3...8...2..8.1..952.......1.9....3...5.8..#r4c89,r9c9<>9#NoFish149
.7....9..1..5...3..8..6...29..........63..7...5...2.8...4.9....2....85...3...4.1.#r4c9<>6#NoFish150
.8...1.....34.........2.9....53......1..9.2..6....7.8...7..5.1..4......29..6....3#r2c2<>2#NoFish151
.8.2.....5......3...9.8.1....63.....4....59...7......2..1..9...3..6..7...2..4..8.#r6c7<>8#NoFish152
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6..8......7..4.1....2..5.3..561.......3..79......2..8..1.63.7....8...........9..2#r8c9<>6#NoFish441
6..8.....3....91....7.4..3..2.7.......5.6.9....3..1.8..8....7....12.....4....5..2#r1c3<>2#NoFish442
6..9......5..3.7....4..2.8...3...8.....6...1.9.......27....45...2..1..9...68....3#r4c9<>6#NoFish443
6.7.2.....8....9.....4...3.5...9.....2.1.......3..87..9..3...8..6..5..1...1.....2#r2c6<>7#NoFish444
62.5.........6..8.......9...3....7....548..1.4....9..2..7.2....9....45...6.1....3#r7c6<>8#NoFish445
7..........4.8.9...2.5...3...6.3.....8...9......2..7....9..4.8..3..6.51.1.......2#r2c4<>7#NoFish446
7.........2.9.......8.4.1..5.3..1......7..9...6..8..3...41..7...3.6...8......5..2#r1c9<>5#NoFish447
7.........3.29......9..51...4.1.........6.9..2....8.3...5...7...6...4.8.1..3....2#r7c8,r7c9<>9#NoFish448
7.........5.2..9....1.8..3.4...9.....2...1.....6.2.78...96..5...8.....1.3....4..2#r1c4<>4#NoFish449
7.........8.5..9....6.81.3..3..9....6..2..7....1..4.8.......5...9...2.1...4.3...2#r7c9<>7#NoFish450
7.....9.....6.......1..2.3..9.3.......5.817..2...4..8..6.7..5.......4.1...4.9...2#r8c9<>6#NoFish451
7.....9....65...8..4..3...2.9...4.....12..7..5......1...8.6.....3...15..2..7....3#r4c4<>3#NoFish452
7.....9...3.6...8...1..5..2..51......2...4...6...8.7..4..3..5...8...2.1...9.....3#r7c5<>7#NoFish453
7....4....8.1...3...5.2.9..1..4......6....7....2..9.8....6..5..4...8..1..9...7..2#r7c9<>4#NoFish454
7....81...6.....3...954.....5.......8...1.9....2..47..4..9..5...3.....8...1.7...2#r9c4<>3#NoFish455
7...1.....8.2..9.........3...3.......6..5.7..1..4.9.8...5..73...4..8..1.9..6....2#r5c6<>3#NoFish456
7...2......15..9...4...8.3..5.9..7.............6..3.8..9.6...1...8..75..3...4...2#r5c1<>2#NoFish457
7...2......8...1...9.1...3..6.47.........59..4..3...8..3...4.1...56..7......8...2#r4c1<>2#NoFish458
7...2.....3....9....8.1..3..6..3.......4..7....1..5.8...46..3...9...8.1.5...7...2#r4c1<>2#NoFish459
7...2.9...5.6.......8..1.3..9.........34..7..2..15..8..6....5.......841...4.....2#r4c5<>6#NoFish460
7...4.....6.2...3...1...9....9......5..1..7...2...9.8......75..3..4...1..8..6...2#r7c8,r7c9<>9#NoFish461
7...4.....9.....3...29..1...3..8....6....5......7..92..4.3..7....5..1.8.9...6...2#r1c6<>6#NoFish462
7...4.9.....5...8..6..8...2.5.9.....3...2.7.......8.1...91......4...75..2...6...3#r4c3<>1#NoFish463
7...5......39..1...9.8...2..2..4......5...9..6..7...3..4.3.1.8...1..27......9....#r5c8,r5c9<>1#NoFish464
7...6.....8...5.3...92..1...4.1.....2....8.....1..49....6...7..5....9.8..3..4...2#r7c8,r7c9<>1#NoFish465
7...6.9...8.5.......2..4.3..6..9.........17....52...8..4.7..5.......8.1...6.3...2#r2c9,r3c9<>6#NoFish466
7..1......5..3.9....6.4..8....8.......1.5.7..3.......2..8.7.5...4...9.1....2....3#r4c1<>2#NoFish467
7..1......6....9....3.5..8.1.47.5....5..3......8..4..2..98..7......7..1.2....6..3#r1c6<>2#NoFish468
7..2.......5..91...6..3..8.4....5.....61..9......73..2.2..8......1...7..9....4..3#r4c2<>8#NoFish469
7..2......3...19....5.6..8....5......89.3.7..1....4..2..4...5...6..8..1....7....3#r9c6<>2#NoFish470
7..2..9....4.1.....5.....3...25......3.....8.1...3.7...8.....1....64.5....9..7..2#r3c9<>8#NoFish471
7..2..9...4...5.....1.8..3...4..1....2.3...8.....9.7...5..6.......7...1...3..4..2#r7c9,r8c9<>4#NoFish472
7..2..9...4...8.....6.5..3..9............47.....1...8..3..9.5..8..6...1...4..7..2#r4c9,r6c9<>4#NoFish473
7..3..........41....5.2..8..6...7.....85..9..3...1...2..4.8.7...2...65..9.......3#r2c8<>6#NoFish474
7..3......2....9....4.1..8.5...8......34..7...1......2..8.5.....9.7...1.6....9..3#r6c8<>9#NoFish475
7..3......5..4.9....1..8.....3.6.....4...9.8....1..7.2...2..5...89.7..1.6.......3#r1c7<>2#NoFish476
7..3..1...8..2.........5.....4.......1..6..3....8.79...6.1..7..3...9..8...5..4..2#r3c9<>4#NoFish477
7..4..9...5...1.....3.2..8....3......6...5.1.....74..2.4..6.7..1......9...2..8..3#r4c1,r5c1<>9#NoFish478
7..5.........1..8.....389....6.9.7..8......1..5.4....24.........9.2..5....1.7...3#r7c2,r7c3<>8#NoFish479
7..5.......1.3..8..8...49..3...9.7...5.....1...4..6..2.9.8.......2.1.5..6.......3#r5c5,r5c6<>8#NoFish480
7..5......3.....8...1.4.9...6.......2.....7..5.3.1...2.8.6..5....4....1.9...2...3#r1c6<>2#NoFish481
7..5......3..6.9....1.3..8.4....1....5.9..7......8...2..6...5...9..7..1.8....4..3#r5c9<>4#NoFish482
7..5......5..2.1....6..89...8...4.....9.6.7..2......3...49..5..3...7..8.........2#r9c4<>3#NoFish483
7..5......6..3.9....5....8..4...9...1...8.7....3.....2..86..5..2....4.1..9..7...3#r6c8<>5#NoFish484
7..5..9...4...8.....6.1..3..3...4.......2.7.....9...8..8..7.5.....6...1.4.9..3..2#r5c9,r6c9<>4#NoFish485
7..6.......2...9...3...4.8.1....3.....5...7.....9.7..2.9.2...1...6...5..4....8..3#r2c8<>5#NoFish486
7..6.....1...8..3..5...12.....5..9..3....478...6.....2..93.....4.....5...8..7..1.#r7c5<>6#NoFish487
7..6..1...3...8.....2.9......6.4.....8.2...3.5....79......127.....3...8...4..5..2#r3c9<>4#NoFish488
7..6..9...1.2...3.....5......2..4....3....7..5...9..8..6...75....4.8..1.9..3....2#r7c9<>4#NoFish489
7..8..........5.8..9..241...6.......5...1.9....3..7..2.8.9.......1..67..2...4...3#r4c1,r4c3<>8#NoFish490
7..8......4...19....2.5..3..9.........5..47.........8.3...2.5....86...1......7.92#r6c6<>9#NoFish491
7..8......5..2......1..49..3...5.7.....1...8...6..9..22.87..5...9.....1......6..3#r3c9<>6#NoFish492
7..8......5..2......3..19...4..5.......3...8.9....7..2.8..4.7....6..9.1.2..1....3#r2c7<>4#NoFish493
7..8......6..2......4..39..1....7.....3....8..5.1....2..8.4.7..9......1..2...5..3#r1c7,r1c9<>1#NoFish494
7..9.......6....3..5..4.1...3.17......8..59..1.......22...6.....4...17....93...8.#r1c5<>2#NoFish495
7..9......5...3.8.....4.2..6....7....4.8..9....3....12.9.6.......8.2....1....5..3#r7c3,r9c3<>2#NoFish496
7..9..1......5....8...17.3...6..2....7..4..8.3..1..9...9.6.....5...8......1..3..2#r2c3<>2#NoFish497
7.94..1.......32...6..5..8..1.6.......5.7.9..8.......2..4.8.........97..2..1....3#r7c6<>2#NoFish498
8.........1.6..9....4.5..3.29.8.........3.7.......1.8...6.4.8...3...7.1.5..9....2#r1c4<>2#NoFish499
8.........7.6..1....9.4..3..5...8...1...7.9....43...2....1.....3....278..6...5..2#r1c3<>5#NoFish500
8.....1...2.6.......9.3.....4.9.......5..72....7.8..3....14.9...3...5.8.6.......2#r1c9<>6#NoFish501
8.....9...1.2...3...5....8..4.........7.938..3....5.1.....3.7...6...1.9...9.....2#r7c2<>2#NoFish502
8.....9...1.5...3...4.2.......9.2....5....7..3...1..8...9..35...6..4..1.7..8....2#r8c3<>2#NoFish503
8.....9...1.64......7..3...9...6.....3...1.8...57....2...8..7...6...5.1...4.....3#r7c5<>9#NoFish504
8.....9...5.1.....2.7..3...1.....7...3.9...8...6.4...2...8..5.......7.1...4.6...3#r1c9<>4#NoFish505
8.....9...7..3......15...8.5...8..1...39..7...4......2.2...45..9...1......6.....3#r8c4,r8c6<>8#NoFish506
8.....9...7.4.......5.2.83..4.........3..97..2..67..8.9...3.5.......7.1...6.....2#r9c1<>4#NoFish507
8....1....6.5..9....794..3.....2......56..7...1.....8...3...5...4.8...1.9..7....2#r7c1<>2#NoFish508
8....3....9.2.......4.5.1....6.......2.1.79..7...8..3.5.....7...6..4..8...39....2#r1c8,r1c9<>7#NoFish509
8....3....9.6.......2.5.1...4..8.......7..9..9.1....3..5.1..7....3..5.8.6...4...2#r2c9<>7#NoFish510
8....7....2....1....94...3..7.6.....3.....8....5.2.9....63.....4....9.8..1..5...2#r2c6,r3c6<>8#NoFish511
8....9....4.7.........2.1..7..4......2..879....5..1.3.1.........9..3..8...3..5..2#r3c9<>3#NoFish512
8...1.....172..9...5...7.3..2...........4.7.......3.8..3.7...1...6..85..4...9...2#r6c9<>4#NoFish513
8...2.....1.7..8....79...3..3..7......41..9..6....5.8..9...47....56...1.....3...2#r4c1<>2#NoFish514
8...2.....4.1...3...5...9....745....2.....7....3..9.8...68..5..7......1..9..4...2#r1c9,r3c9<>4#NoFish515
8...2.....6.7..9....1..5.3.....1......9..37..4..6...8..7.8.......5..4.1.....9...2#r4c1<>2#NoFish516
8...2.....6.7..9....5..1.3.....4......9..57..1..3...8..7.6..5....3..9.1.........2#r4c1<>2#NoFish517
8...4.....7.9...3...92..1....2.1....6....3....5.8..9...4...57....3....8.....6...2#r4c9<>6#NoFish518
8...5.....4.....3...27..1....1.3.....7.8.....5....29...6...97....31...8.4..5....2#r4c9,r5c9<>5#NoFish519
8...5.....4.7..9....1..4.3......23...6..1.7..4..9...8.9.....5......6..1...38....2#r7c6,r8c6<>3#NoFish520
8...5.....9....1....64...3.5....8.....7.1.....2....9....3.9.7...4.6...8.1....5..2#r5c9,r6c9<>5#NoFish521
8...7.....7.2.......3..51...2..1......6...9..4..8...3...93..7..5....4.8....56...2#r3c8<>9#NoFish522
8..1.......6.5.9...7..64.3.61....7.......2.....53...8..9.....1...4.8.5.......7..2#r7c1<>2#NoFish523
8..2......7....9....1.3..8.4....9....5.1..7....3.6...2..9...5..6...8..1..2...4..3#r4c4<>8#NoFish524
8..2.....4...7..3......59....6...7...1.....8.5..43...27....4....2..6.5....38...1.#r1c9,r3c9<>4#NoFish525
8..3......9...21....7.4.....5..7......6..19...1.....3.3...9.7....46...8......5..2#r9c8<>1#NoFish526
8..3..7...4..9......1....8.3...8..1...9.6.5...7...4..2.5....4..2......9...6..1..3#r8c4,r8c6<>8#NoFish527
8..4........67.1....6..5.3..1..2......5...9..7..3...8.4..8..7....9.14...........2#r1c2<>2#NoFish528
8..4......1..73.....7...9....9.1....6..7...8..3...5..2.....47...5.....1.4...2...3#r7c5<>9#NoFish529
8..4..1....2.9.........7.3..3...2.....76..9..1...4..8..9.1.........3.8....6..5..2#r3c5<>8#NoFish530
8..4..7......5..1...3...9.2...58......1..3....2......3..6.2.5...4.1...9.7.......8#r9c2<>3#NoFish531
8..5..9...6..2......7....3..5.........1..37..4..6...8..2..8.5......4..1...9.....2#r4c4,r4c6<>2#NoFish532
8..9........5...3...5.7.1..6....2....4....9..7.3.5..8...73.....9...4.....1...8..2#r2c7<>2#NoFish533
8..9......6...7.2...5.3.1..3...8......75..9...4......2.2....7....14...8.9....5..3#r8c6<>2#NoFish534
8..9..1....6..4....7.....3..8..1.7...6.2...8...5....1..3..7..9....6..5....4..8..2#r1c9<>4#NoFish535
8.4.2.....7....9....5....3..6.........19..7.......4.8..1...75....96...1.3...8...2#r4c1<>2#NoFish536
81.7..9......6......5....8.3......1...9..47...6..5...2.7.9..5..2...8......4..1..3#r4c4,r4c6<>8#NoFish537
9..........68..1...5..2..3..7..5......3..19..4..6...8...7.4.....1...97........8.2#r3c1<>8#NoFish538
9.........7.1.3.....8.2.1..4....5.......1.9....27...3..5.9..7....6....8.3....4..2#r1c9<>4#NoFish539
9.....1....5..8.3..4..7.....3..25.....6...9..7..1...8..1..6.....28..47.....3....2#r3c4,r3c6<>2#NoFish540
9.....1...4..8..3.6..7....2..5..2...8...1.......6..9....9..5....2.3...8.1...4.7.3#r5c6<>9#NoFish541
9.....2...7.8...3...5.1....1..34.....6....9.......2.8...46..7...8..9..1.3....5..2#r5c1<>2#NoFish542
9.....7...1.3...8...6.4...2..89.....3.....5...2..6..1.5....8....7.2...9...4.1...3#r1c6<>5#NoFish543
9.....7...5..1..8...43....2...2.......6.4.5..8....9.1.2....64...7..5..9...1.....3#r4c3<>3#NoFish544
9....2....3.8.......7.4.1...4.......6....59....27...3..1.6..7....5..9.8.4...3...2#r1c9,r2c9<>4#NoFish545
9....47.....5...8...1.3...2.6.2..........75..3...8..1...5...4..2....1.9..7.6....3#r2c9<>6#NoFish546
9....5..........3..7..8.1...1..7....4..3..9....32...8...51......6...97..8...4...2#r7c7,r7c9<>3#NoFish547
9....5....6.3..7....4.1..8.2.............95...7.4...12..1...4...8.67..9......2..3#r1c4,r1c5<>2#NoFish548
9...2.7...4.....8...5.3...2..........7..425..6..9...1...3...4..8...5..9..1.7....3#r4c4,r4c6<>3#NoFish549
9...4.....8...71....62...3...2..5...7.........1.8..9.......97...5.3...8.4...1...2#r5c9<>4#NoFish550
9...4.1...3.6.......7..8....54..29.....1.......8.7..3..6.5..7.......9.8...1.3.5.2#r1c9<>6#NoFish551
9..2.......3....8.....5.1..5..4.......7..39...1.6....2..5.8....4..9..7...6...1..3#r1c8<>5#NoFish552
9..2......4..5.7....3..1.8....8..5..2...9..1...4.....2..85..4...1...6.9.....7...3#r9c6<>2#NoFish553
9..2.....5.....1...3..9..8...4..5....1.6..9..8...7...2..9..4....6..1.7..2..8....3#r2c8<>4#NoFish554
9..2..1...6...5.....7.8..3.1.2.7.....4.......8..1..9...3..9.7.....6...8...5..4..2#r8c9<>1#NoFish555
9..2..1...6...5...5...7..3...7..4...2...........58.9...1..6.7.....9...8...4..3..2#r6c9<>4#NoFish556
9..4.......3...1...6..7..8...5.41....4.6..9..7...8...2..1..5....2..9.7..8.......3#r2c8<>5#NoFish557
9..5.......6....8..7..3.1..35...........7.9....4..8..2..54.....2....17...8..9...3#r3c8<>5#NoFish558
9..5......1..4.7....3..6.8.4..9..5....8....1..7..3...2.2....4.....7...9.6....1..3#r8c6<>8#NoFish559
9..6..........538..7..4.1.............5..39...8.57...21...8.....6.9..7....42....3#r4c3,r6c3<>3#NoFish560
9..6......7..8.1....2..9.3...37......1..4....8....29...4.3..7....6.1..8......5..2#r9c8<>9#NoFish561
9..7..........18....6.2..3.3...4.9...7...5.8...16....2.2..9.7....53..........8.1.#r8c2<>8#NoFish562
9..7..8...1..2......5..4.3.3......8...6.9.7...8.2...1..4.1..5......6..9...7.....2#r8c2<>2#NoFish563
9..7..8...1..2......5..4.3.3......8...6.9.7...8.2...1..4.1..5......6..9...7.....2#r8c2<>2#NoFish563

The only solutions I have result from a search for impossible cycling fish. Here are the ones I found that make the same eliminations before I lost interest.
Hidden Text: Show
039 (4)Cycling4Fish:r2389\c2345
040 (6)Cycling4Fish:c1378\r5689
041 (5)Cycling4Fish:r4679\c2356
042 (2)Cycling4Fish:r5689\c4678
044 (5)Cycling4Fish:r5679\c2346
045 (6)Cycling4Fish:c1278\r2389

I've been too busy to spend much time on Sudoku recently but at the moment I'm thinking that with duplicated sectors in the base and cover sets there are too many options to search for NxM fish, and forcing nets would be quicker if one is prepared to use them. Once a net elimination is found, it would then rather dishonest to convert it to a fish.

As yet though, I'm still harbouring hopes that a reasonable methodology other than iterating a vast number of options may be available, even if it doesn't haven't have 100% hit rate.
David P Bird
2010 Supporter
 
Posts: 957
Joined: 16 September 2008
Location: Middle England

Re: NoFish22-NoFish563 list

Postby daj95376 » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:48 pm

tarek wrote:
blue wrote:Hi tarek,
Thanks for the heads up.
If you run across fish for any of the specified eliminations in the current list, would you post them please ?

No Problem,

Becuase It turned up that MY template eliminations were not absolutely correct, It will need somebody else to run through the list again and post the correct eliminations. There was a corrected version that was lost with the old forum and unfortunately I don't have a copy of. Even the original list was sent to me by ronk & ttt as I didn't keep a copy.

Unfortunately all the fish that were caught have been lost with the old forum but I'll post any that I come accross.

I ran my solver against Tarek's NoFish -- searching first for other techniques (including Fish) being present ... and subsequently stopping to list any Template eliminations present. Every one of my solutions had Template eliminations matching Tarek's eliminations. There were two puzzles where my solver found additional eliminations to Tarek's eliminations. The additional eliminations are (probably) insignificant.

.7....9....64...3.5....1..2......7..4..3...8...2..8.1..952.......1.9....3...5.8.. # NoFish149 r4c89,r9c9<>9
6..7......1..42.....3.8.9...4.1...3.7...3..8.........2..9...7.......5.1.8..46...3 # NoFish435 r6c8,r8c9,r9c6<>9

These two entries match results posted in DPB's list.
daj95376
2014 Supporter
 
Posts: 2624
Joined: 15 May 2006

Re: a new (?) view of fish (naked or hidden)

Postby daj95376 » Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:25 am

blue wrote:For the earlier list (including the PMs in the post that follows), it finds Obi-Whan fish for just a few cases.

NoFish9: r2c36677b49\r11667999c248b8 => r9c4<>7 (rank 4)
NoFish21: r27c77b2\r1c36b3999 => r8c89<>2 (rank 2)

NoFish4: Obi-Whan fish for r9c8<>9, but not for r4c5<>5, r9c7<>5, or r9c3<>3.
NoFish5: Obi-Whan fish for r8c7<>9, r7c4<>9 and r7c5<>9, but not for r4c8<>5, r9c7<>5, or r9c3<>9.
NoFish14: Obi-Whan fish for r3c7<>8 (and r3c8<>8), but not for r3c7<>5 (or r3c8<>5).

For NoFish14, the r3c8 eliminations aren't shown in the PM diagram in the referenced post.
NoFish4 has been mentioned as having "issues", possibly, depending on which version is listed.

FWIW:

Code: Select all
Obi-Wahn NoFish #21:   solvable

 .......39.5....6....68...4129.5.3.7...5..74....1.......7.16..9.6...85...1........

 +-----------------------+
 | . . . | . . . | . 3 9 |
 | . 5 . | . . . | 6 . . |
 | . . 6 | 8 . . | . 4 1 |
 |-------+-------+-------|
 | 2 9 . | 5 . 3 | . 7 . |
 | . . 5 | . . 7 | 4 . . |
 | . . 1 | . . . | . . . |
 |-------+-------+-------|
 | . 7 . | 1 6 . | . 9 . |
 | 6 . . | . 8 5 | . . . |
 | 1 . . | . . . | . . . |
 +-----------------------+

 r3      Naked  Triple                   <> 239  r3c57
 r2  b2  Locked Candidate 1              <> 3    r2c13
   c9b6  Locked Candidate 1              <> 3    r78c9
   c3b7  Locked Candidate 1              <> 9    r2c3
   c3b7  Locked Candidate 2              <> 3    r89c2
   c1b1  Locked Candidate 2              <> 4    r2c3
   c6b8  Locked Candidate 2              <> 4    r8c4,r9c45
 r2      Naked  Triple                   <> 278  r2c145

   c18   X-Wing    f/s                   <> 8    r1c7,r2c3   all extraneous
 r14     X-Wing    f/s                   <> 8    r2c3
 r24     X-Wing    f/s                   <> 8    r1c7
 r47     X-Wing    f/s                   <> 8    r9c7
 r49     X-Wing    f/s                   <> 8    r7c3

5-Fish r27c7b26\r1c36 9+r8|b9   Bm 212\230  <> 2  r8c8    extraneous
5-Fish r27c7b26\r1c368 +r8|b9   Bm 212\230  <> 2  r8c9
5-Fish r27c7b26\r1c3689         Bm 212\140  <> 2  r8c89

Solution: 817456239452391687936872541298543176365917428741628953573164892629785314184239765


Code: Select all
Obi-Wahn NoFish #14:   solvable

 5...4.2...1..2.7....21......7..1...62...3...4..6....7...4.7.69.3.........9.3.1..2

 +-----------------------+
 | 5 . . | . 4 . | 2 . . |
 | . 1 . | . 2 . | 7 . . |
 | . . 2 | 1 . . | . . . |
 |-------+-------+-------|
 | . 7 . | . 1 . | . . 6 |
 | 2 . . | . 3 . | . . 4 |
 | . . 6 | . . . | . 7 . |
 |-------+-------+-------|
 | . . 4 | . 7 . | 6 9 . |
 | 3 . . | . . . | . . . |
 | . 9 . | 3 . 1 | . . 2 |
 +-----------------------+

 r5      Naked  Pair                     <> 58   r5c467
   c7b6  Locked Candidate 1              <> 3    r3c7
 r8  b8  Locked Candidate 1              <> 4    r8c78
 r8      Naked  Triple                   <> 158  r8c2456

4-Fish r57c59\r6c2b8+r3|c8|b3   fm 220\211  <> 5  r3c8   extraneous
4-Fish r57c59\r6c2b8+r3|c8|b3   fm 220\211  <> 8  r3c8   extraneous

5-Fish r57c59b9\r6c28b8+r3|b3   fm 221\221  <> 5  r3c7 (+r3c8)
5-Fish r57c59b9\r6c28b8+r3|b3   fm 221\221  <> 8  r3c7 (+r3c8)

Solution: 537649218419823765682157439873914526251736984946285371124578693368492157795361842

I'm not sure at what point you are solving NoFish4 and NoFish5.

Code: Select all
Obi-Wahn NoFish #4:

 ..72....62...4..758.....1..1.4.6.8...2.8....3.....9....3...4..14..6..2.....7.....

 +-----------------------+
 | . . 7 | 2 . . | . . 6 |
 | 2 . . | . 4 . | . 7 5 |
 | 8 . . | . . . | 1 . . |
 |-------+-------+-------|
 | 1 . 4 | . 6 . | 8 . . |
 | . 2 . | 8 . . | . . 3 |
 | . . . | . . 9 | . . . |
 |-------+-------+-------|
 | . 3 . | . . 4 | . . 1 |
 | 4 . . | 6 . . | 2 . . |
 | . . . | 7 . . | . . . |
 +-----------------------+

 r7      Naked  Triple                   <> 569  r7c35
 r6  b4  Locked Candidate 1              <> 3    r6c5
   c7b6  Locked Candidate 1              <> 6    r9c7

2-Fish r1b8\c15                 fF 101\020  <> 9  r7c1

4-Fish r1c249\r349b1            fm 130\301  <> 9  r9c5
4-Fish r1c29b2\r349b1           Bm 121\301  <> 9  r9c5
4-Fish r1c249\r34c5b1           fm 130\211  <> 9  r9c5
4-Fish r1c249\r34b18            fm 130\202  <> 9  r9c5

 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 |  359     1       7       |  2       359     35      |  4       8       6       |
 |  2       69      369     |  1       4       8       |  39      7       5       |
 |  8       4       359     |  359     7       6       |  1       239     29      |
 |--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
 |  1       59      4       |  35      6       2357    |  8       259     279     |
 |  5679    2       569     |  8       15      157     |  569     4       3       |
 |  3567    568     3568    |  4       25      9       |  56      1       27      |
 |--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
 |  56      3       28      |  59      28      4       |  7       569     1       |
 |  4       7       159     |  6       1359    135     |  2       359     8       |
 |  569     5689    125689  |  7       12358   1235    |  359     3569    4       |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

         Templates (A: 1)                <> 5    r4c8,r9c7
         Templates (A: 1)                <> 9    r9c38         *** not necessary


Code: Select all
Obi-Wahn NoFish #5:

 ..4..8......2..1.....5.134.9.....8.64.8...71.751.....383...4........6..75.7......

 +-----------------------+
 | . . 4 | . . 8 | . . . |
 | . . . | 2 . . | 1 . . |
 | . . . | 5 . 1 | 3 4 . |
 |-------+-------+-------|
 | 9 . . | . . . | 8 . 6 |
 | 4 . 8 | . . . | 7 1 . |
 | 7 5 1 | . . . | . . 3 |
 |-------+-------+-------|
 | 8 3 . | . . 4 | . . . |
 | . . . | . . 6 | . . 7 |
 | 5 . 7 | . . . | . . . |
 +-----------------------+

   c8    Naked  Pair                     <> 29   r1289c8
 r6      Naked  Pair                     <> 29   r6c45
     b9  Naked  Triple                   <> 259  r9c7
   c8b9  Naked  Pair                     <> 38   r2c8
 r8  b7  Locked Candidate 1              <> 2    r8c57
 r7  b9  Locked Candidate 1              <> 2    r7c5

5-Fish c368b37\r2369b9          BF 032\401  <> 9  r8c7
5-Fish r157b37\c24579           AF 302\050  <> 9  r8c7
5-Fish r157b37\c2459b9          BF 302\041  <> 9  r8c7

 +--------------------------------------------------------------+
 |  1236  179   4     |  369   3679  8     |  29    67    5     |
 |  36    789   5     |  2     4     39    |  1     67    89    |
 |  26    789   29    |  5     679   1     |  3     4     289   |
 |--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
 |  9     2     3     |  4     1     7     |  8     5     6     |
 |  4     6     8     |  39    239   5     |  7     1     29    |
 |  7     5     1     |  68    68    29    |  4     29    3     |
 |--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
 |  8     3     6     |  7     5     4     |  29    29    1     |
 |  12    4     29    |  1389  389   6     |  5     38    7     |
 |  5     19    7     |  1389  2389  239   |  6     38    4     |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------+

         Templates (A: 1)                <> 9    r3c3,r8c45,r9c2
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Re: a new (?) view of fish (naked or hidden)

Postby blue » Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:36 am

Hi Danny,

daj95376 wrote:I'm not sure at what point you are solving NoFish4 and NoFish5.

For NoFish4, at the point that you show.
Here's one of the Obi-Wahn fish for the r9c8 elimination.
Hidden Text: Show
r347c15b77\r18999c3489b4

It's like the 5x5 fish, r347c15\r1c489b4, with r9c1 as a normal fin, and r3c3 and r8c5 as remote fins.
[ (r3c3-r8c3=r9c123-) and (r8c5-r8c3=r9c123-) ]

For NoFish5, I was using the wrong starting point -- the point just before the r8c7 elimination(s) you showed.
When I use your starting point, I don't find anything. I'll make a note in the earlier post.

For NoFish14, I must have goten mixed up somehow -- read the wrong line in the output, or something.
I do find the eliminations for all 4 candidates (58r3c78), just as you did.

BTW: I saw your post about the template eliminations for NoFish22-NoFish563.
I got the same results, and no Obi-Whan fish for the few eliminations that were missing.

Blue.
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Re: The NoFish List

Postby tarek » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:07 am

Thanks to Danny, blue, David & others for verifying the eliminations. This should allow targeting the correct eliminations in the future. Let the fishing begin ;)
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NoFish #22

Postby daj95376 » Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:21 pm

From my modest perspective, Fish logic uses Base/Cover sets and (often) fin cells to determine eliminations. NoFish contain invalid X-Cycles/Loops. However, dealing with an invalid X-Cycle seems beyond the reach of Fish logic. What's now needed is a way to detect these invalid X-Cycles and determine if an elimination exists.

Back when Tarek originally posted his NoFish, I tested a few of his initial offerings and noticed that the systematic placement of givens forced the invalid X-Cycle to exist right from the start.

Tarek #1 (NoFish #22): 12/25/09 (mm/dd/yy)

Code: Select all
 +-----------------------+
 | . . . | . . . | . . 9 |
 | . . 5 | . . 1 | . 3 . |
 | . 7 . | . 6 . | 4 . . |
 |-------+-------+-------|
 | 6 . . | . . 3 | . . 2 |
 | . . 4 | . 8 . | . 1 . |
 | . 3 . | . . 7 | 5 . . |
 |-------+-------+-------|
 | . . 9 | . . 5 | . 6 . |
 | . 1 . | . 3 . | 7 . . |
 | . . . | 2 . . | . . 8 |
 +-----------------------+

 +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
 |  12348  2468   12368  |  34578  2457   248    |  1268   2578   9      |
 |  2489   24689  5      |  4789   2479   1      |  268    3      67     |
 |  12389  7      1238   |  3589   6      289    |  4      258    15     |
 |-----------------------+-----------------------+-----------------------|
 |  6      589    178    |  1459   1459   3      |  89     4789   2      |
 |  2579   259    4      |  569    8      269    |  369    1      367    |
 |  1289   3      128    |  1469   1249   7      |  5      489    46     |
 |-----------------------+-----------------------+-----------------------|
 |  23478  248    9      |  1478   147    5      |  123    6      134    |
 |  2458   1      268    |  4689   3      4689   |  7      2459   45     |
 |  3457   456    367    |  2      1479   469    |  139    459    8      |
 +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
 # 144 eliminations remain

 (*) invalid X-Cycle
 (g) guardian cells to prevent (*): r1c235678,r235678c1,r2c2,r3c3
 r1c1=2 eliminates all guardian cells and forces presence of invalid X-Cycle
 +-----------------------------------+
 | -2 g2 g2  |  . g2 g2  | g2 g2  .  |
 | g2 g2  .  |  . *2  .  | *2  .  .  |
 | g2  . g2  |  .  . *2  |  . *2  .  |
 |-----------+-----------+-----------|
 |  .  .  .  |  .  .  .  |  .  .  2  |
 | g2 *2  .  |  .  . *2  |  .  .  .  |
 | g2  . *2  |  . *2  .  |  .  .  .  |
 |-----------+-----------+-----------|
 | g2 *2  .  |  .  .  .  | *2  .  .  |
 | g2  . *2  |  .  .  .  |  . *2  .  |
 |  .  .  .  |  2  .  .  |  .  .  .  |
 +-----------------------------------+

Yes, the X-Cycle can be split into two smaller oddagons, but I like the pattern afforded by taking the longer route.
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Re: The NoFish List

Postby David P Bird » Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:36 am

DAJ, at the risk of teaching grandma to suck eggs, you don't need to specify the full set of guardian cells, just enough to ensure that each of the invalid pattern cells sees a member of the set you use. For NoFish #22 the options are:
r234578c1,r2c2,r3c3 (by rows)
r1c235678,r2c2,r3c3 (by columns)
r1c5678,r5678c1 (by boxes)

There is similarity between these sets for the invalid pattern and the sets of fin and PE cells for a fish pattern, which is why I consider the invalid cell set to form the body cells of an impossible fish.

Because the pattern must be false, each one of these sets must contain a truth, and if no cell is seen by all members of a set to provide an elimination, it can be split into two strongly linked subsets which may provide an elimination chain.

A quick way to check for an impossible fish is to check the box diagonals the pattern cells occupy. Here, in 5 out of the 6 containing boxes they are in the the \ direction, and in the other it is the / direction. As these counts are both odd, the pattern can't be simply coloured and so is impossible.

That's a lot quicker than surveying the guardians for individual oddagons.

PS Why can't you over-eat and fall asleep in front of a re-run on the telly like everyone else?
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Re: The NoFish List

Postby sultan vinegar » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:01 am

Hi everyone, this is my first post after rapidly getting up to speed on advanced techniques. For this elimination:

Code: Select all
 .  .  . |  .  .  8 |  .  .  .
 8  8  . |  .  .  . |  .  8  .
 .  .  8 |  .  .  . |  .  .  8
---------+----------+---------
 .  .  8 |  .  8  . |  .  8  .
 8  .  . |  8  .  . |  .  8  .
 .  8  8 |  .  8  . |  8  .  .
---------+----------+---------
 F  .  8 |  .  8  . |  8  8  8
 .  G  . |  .  8  . |  .  8  T
 8  G  . |  8  .  . |  8  .  .


I see two overlapping fish (both for digit 8), at least one of which is true, and both fish eliminate the target. Bear with me.

F is weakly linked to G, so at least one of F,G is false.

If F is false, then the 5 truth, 7 link fish c1247b3\r25689c9b9 is true. The target T is in 0 base sets and 3 link sets, so is eliminated automatically under rank 2 logic.

If G is false, then the 3 truth, 4 link fish (grouped x-chain) c27b3\r26c9b9 is true. The target T is in 0 base sets and 2 link sets, so is eliminated automatically under rank 1 logic.

Either way, the target T is eliminated.
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Re: The NoFish List

Postby tarek » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:46 pm

I've updated my NoFish22-NoFish563 List to accommodate the corrected eliminations. Thanks to Danny & blue.
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Re: NoFish4

Postby daj95376 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:13 am

blue wrote:For NoFish4, at the point that you show.
Here's one of the Obi-Wahn fish for the r9c8 elimination.
r347c15b77\r18999c3489b4

It's like the 5x5 fish, r347c15\r1c489b4, with r9c1 as a normal fin, and r3c3 and r8c5 as remote fins.
[ (r3c3-r8c3=r9c123-) and (r8c5-r8c3=r9c123-) ]

I've been discussing the elimination r9c8<>9 with StrmCkr and an idea he's been investigating. IMO, his results include a single remote fin cell. Then, while staring at the candidate grid for <9>, it hit me that a simple pattern with two remote fin cells existed.

Code: Select all
Kraken Empty Rectangle r3b7\c38

 r3c4 - r7c4 = r7c8 - r9c8

 r3c9 - r2c7 = r2c23 - r1c1; X-Wing r59c17; r9c8<>9

Note: I did not research to see if anyone else has already posted the same results. I just thought that it'd be appropriate to this thread.
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