The New Sudoku Players' Forum

[tarek]

This is great...

So all of our batch postings are going to change forever

I will be using it for postings in that regard.

I hope that it is not too slow, in any case that would be an incentive towards limiting the number of posted puzzles.

Thanx,

tarek

[gsf]

I will be using it for postings in that regard.

I hope that it is not too slow, in any case that would be an incentive towards limiting the number of posted puzzles.

too slow : ~2 puz/min/Ghz
but SE is still the slow part in hardest analysis

[ronk]

Code: Select all

# Golden Nugget
 . . . | . . 9 | . . 5                . . . | . . 1 | . . 5
 . 3 . | . . . | . 7 .                . 3 . | . . . | . 7 .
 . . 2 | . 8 . | 6 . .                . . 2 | . 8 . | 6 . .
-------+-------+-------              -------+-------+-------
 . . 8 | . . 2 | 4 . .                . . . | 6 . 8 | 9 . .
 . . . | 6 4 . | . . .                . . 8 | 4 . . | . . .
 1 . . | 8 . . | . . .                9 . . | . 2 . | . . .
-------+-------+-------              -------+-------+-------
 . . 6 | 9 . . | 2 . .                . . 6 | . 4 . | 2 . .
 . 7 . | . . . | . 1 .                . 7 . | . . . | . 1 .
 5 . . | . . . | . . 3                5 . . | . . . | . . 3
# d-3 (including b5)                  # d-2 (excluding b5)

gsf, since I'm the bloke that suggested finding best symmetry excluding the center box, I find that result somewhat unsatisfactory.

Since both permutations are d-2 when ignoring b5, shouldn't including the effect of b5 be the tie-breaker? Or is row minlex a higher priority tie-breaker?

[gsf]

Code: Select all

# Golden Nugget
 . . . | . . 9 | . . 5                . . . | . . 1 | . . 5
 . 3 . | . . . | . 7 .                . 3 . | . . . | . 7 .
 . . 2 | . 8 . | 6 . .                . . 2 | . 8 . | 6 . .
-------+-------+-------              -------+-------+-------
 . . 8 | . . 2 | 4 . .                . . . | 6 . 8 | 9 . .
 . . . | 6 4 . | . . .                . . 8 | 4 . . | . . .
 1 . . | 8 . . | . . .                9 . . | . 2 . | . . .
-------+-------+-------              -------+-------+-------
 . . 6 | 9 . . | 2 . .                . . 6 | . 4 . | 2 . .
 . 7 . | . . . | . 1 .                . 7 . | . . . | . 1 .
 5 . . | . . . | . . 3                5 . . | . . . | . . 3
# d-3 (including b5)                  # d-2 (excluding b5)

gsf, since I'm the bloke that suggested finding best symmetry excluding the center box, I find that result somewhat unsatisfactory.

Since both permutations are d-2 when ignoring b5, shouldn't including the effect of b5 be the tie-breaker? Or is row minlex a higher priority tie-breaker?

the center box is ignored period
I'll keep tiebreakers in mind
thanks

[ronk]

Since both permutations are d-2 when ignoring b5, shouldn't including the effect of b5 be the tie-breaker? Or is row minlex a higher priority tie-breaker?

the center box is ignored period

gsf, a tangentially related observation:

Using -qFN -f"%#cc # %#C#sc" on coloin's new Platinum Blonde ...

Code: Select all

+---+---+---+
|...|...|.12|
|...|...|..3|
|..2|3..|4..|
+---+---+---+
|..1|8..|..5|
|.6.|.7.|8..|
|...|..9|...|
+---+---+---+
|..8|5..|...|
|9..|.4.|5..|
|47.|..6|...|
+---+---+---+ Platinum Blonde

... produces ...

Code: Select all

 . . 3 | . . . | . . .
 . 4 . | . . 2 | . . 3
 1 . 2 | . . . | . . .
-------+-------+-------
 . . . | . . . | . 9 .
 . . 5 | . . 1 | . . 8
 . 8 . | 6 . . | 7 . .
-------+-------+-------
 . . . | . . 8 | . . 5
 . . . | 7 4 . | . 6 .
 . 5 . | . 9 . | 4 . .  # d-2

Vertical reflection would move the single clue in row 1 from box 1 to box 3. Isn't row minlex of the pattern supposed to be a factor here

[gsf]

Isn't row minlex of the pattern supposed to be a factor here

only in a tie break with another symmetry with same distance

[ronk]

Isn't row minlex of the pattern supposed to be a factor here

only in a tie break with another symmetry with same distance

I agree, but this looks like "d-2" versus "a-2" to me ... where the row minlex should vote for "a-2."

[gsf]

Isn't row minlex of the pattern supposed to be a factor here

only in a tie break with another symmetry with same distance

I agree, but this looks like "d-2" versus "a-2" to me ... where the row minlex should vote for "a-2."

right you are
the code did not match the documentation
the code used dihedral index which is the index in the table of dihedral elements
it should use dihedral order, and will in the next release
with this fix it produces a-2
thanks

[m_b_metcalf]

Could we find minimal puzzles with symmetry modulo n ; n>9 ?

Have I understood your question correctly? Does this puzzle have symmetry modulo 11 according to your definition?

Code: Select all

  .  .  .  .  *  .  *  .  1
  .  .  .  .  *  2  .  3  .
  .  4  5  *  .  *  2  6  7
  *  .  .  .  4  8  *  .  .
  *  8  .  3  .  5  .  9  4
  .  .  4  9  2  .  .  .  3
  *  9  8  5  .  4  3  *  .
  .  3  .  *  8  .  .  .  .
  5  .  2  .  9  .  .  .  .   rotational symmetry 'off-by'11'

[JPF]

I think your puzzle has a diagonal symmetry modulo 7:

Code: Select all

+---+---+---+
|...|...|..5|
|..4|..5|.82|
|.8.|..4|39.|
+---+---+---+
|...|..2|.3.|
|.9.|.36|...|
|.43|1.7|...|
+---+---+---+
|.39|...|.5.|
|4.2|...|8.9|
|85.|.2.|.4.|
+---+---+---+


result given by gsf's program:

Code: Select all

........5..4..5.82.8...439......2.3..9..36....431.7....39....5.4.2...8.985..2..4. # d-7


In my definition, we have first to find the symmetry having the best symmetry .

JPF

[m_b_metcalf]

Jean-Pierre,
After a longer search, this is the best I can come up with, a few puzzles that I think have n > 9 in rotational, diagonal, anti-diagonal and up-down symmetries, but fall at the last, left-right hurdle with n = 6:

Code: Select all

.87.........2.19....1.87......5642..84....5.92..8..3.6..81....3.6........7.4....5     
986.....2....3.........76.41..3.4...4....98...6.7.....61..7.2....742.1.88....1.36     
9...5...37...3..8132....6.4.7...8.6..3.29......5......84...1..9......1....2..98.6     
.9.5........63..813..9.76....9...........4.....51..3.847.3.9.25.1.......96......7     


Regards,

Mike

[JPF]

For each of those puzzles could you show the morphs with n=6 ?

JPF

[m_b_metcalf]

For each of those puzzles could you show the morphs with n=6 ?

Actually, no, because I appear to have made an error in the left-right check, which now gives values of 11, 13, 11, and 12, respectively. If there is no further error (it's all new code), then these four puzzles would have n > 9 for all five symmetries. In fact, I found more, all together eight:

Code: Select all

...456.8..5.7...32.8.....46........5....12.....156....36....9..5.8.9..649......58     
1.....78......91.278........7.5....4.6.......8..3....1..26.3..8.489.5........2465     
...4.67.........3.6892.......863.1..7..8.1.24.16..2.7..6......7..4..89....1...4.3     
.234.6.....718..3...93...5.2..6.89.......1....489..1..5.........3.....92.7..6.8..     
.234.6.8..5.1....6.98............9.....91236..4.....7...47.5....6....8..7.2.9....     
..34..7..4...8.2.6..8...1.523.............6...648.7..3.1.7....8...9......8.3..92.     
..3..67.9...18..36.9......5.697......1........7452.9.35..8.3..1......4..9........   
.23.5.......1892..86.3.....27....195.......2...4...3.7.......4....29..7.7.6....5.   

Regards,

Mike

P.S. The puzzles come from Denis Berthier's collection.

[JPF]

Excellent!

Here are other minimal puzzles with best symmetry = 10:

Code: Select all

.1....2344.2..516.........7....4.781..7.1.9...8.29............5.5.7.96.21.64.....
123.4..5.....6.1.4......2.7....825.1............3...6...6...4..3.5.748...42.5..76
........12.1..3456..6.74..8.....138.7....5....29......4...6.5..915...........9..4
.1.......2.3.45.67..68..1536........1..354..6...7....8..2..6371....7.9.44........
1...23........4...25.67.....4523.8.99.......27.1.5.3...7..4..2.....9.....9.36..5.
123.4........5.....5.6...7271....8.....4.6...296.1...59..8.2.14......6........958
...1....23.1.4.5..6..3..17.8..43...97..9.1...4....2..6.84...9....5...64.1.....2..
.....1....23.4....1..5632...6..75.2.2.......8.5..8.67.3.21.8....4...65.....4...8.
.1..234....5...........627.8....1.5.......8...5.2.4.1..835..62....3..7.1..146...8
......1234....56....3..2.7.3...74.5.........76..58..94..9...5....642.9.88.1......
.1...2.3...4.3.....5....678.79.......3..1....1......9...2....6.....2475..978.312.
.....1.......23.4.564......6.3..2....51.672..7.....1.33....86.9.9.17.5...1.......
....123.4...56..781..47.....4.....296...49....2............5..321..9.4..3.5.....7


Now, the new target is 11.

JPF

[m_b_metcalf]

Now, the new target is 11.

I think I'll pass on that. But here are a few more puzzles with what I regard as the most chaotic patterns:

Code: Select all

...456.8..5.7...32.8.....46........5....12.....156....36....9..5.8.9..649......58     
...4.67.........3.6892.......863.1..7..8.1.24.16..2.7..6......7..4..89....1...4.3     
.234.6.8..5.1....6.98............9.....91236..4.....7...47.5....6....8..7.2.9....     
.23.5.......1892..86.3.....27....195.......2...4...3.7.......4....29..7.7.6....5.     
12.4.....4.7.8....69....4.1.3........61.....5..5.7..12..45..1.....8...2...276453.     


Mike