Suggest A Move (SAM#2)

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Suggest A Move (SAM#2)

Postby DonM » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:24 am

People seem to take a particular interest in looking at a given puzzle state and coming up with different patterns/chains. It can be rewarding & instructive seeing the different approaches various solvers take at the same given point in a puzzle. Welcome to the occasional/sporadic 'Suggest A Move' series (SAM), consisting of of a puzzle at a point where there are some interesting patterns and whereby people are invited to come up with any interesting patterns/chains they discover. While these may be puzzles I've already completely solved (or maybe not), there is no hidden surprise or backdoor (at least not that I know of) or some other trick awaiting and I certainly haven't made any exhaustive search for all possible interesting patterns. It is simply an interesting puzzle.

Other than the fact that the use of computer solver derived results is discouraged, there are no rules. However, a new mild twist has been added in which there are now two parts to the SAM process: During the first part people should keep to suggesting moves (just as in SAM#1) which may involve anywhere from one to a few patterns or chains at a time. At the point where the puzzle has been pretty much 'picked apart', which may be after several days to a few weeks, I will indicate that the puzzle is now open to be solved completely and anyone who wishes can put up a full solution. So please, no complete solutions until they are asked for- this should keep the interest open to everyone or as much as possible.

SAM#2: ER=7.8 at the SSTS position:

Code: Select all
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
 | 89     3      5      | 2      7      1      | 4      89     6      |
 | 12489  12489  1289   | 6      89     5      | 7      1289   3      |
 | 1289   7      6      | 4      89     3      | 289    5      12     |
 |----------------------+----------------------+----------------------|
 | 3      1256   12     | 8      256    4      | 25     7      9      |
 | 2458   24568  28     | 9      3      7      | 258    1268   1258   |
 | 7      25689  289    | 1      256    26     | 3      268    4      |
 |----------------------+----------------------+----------------------|
 | 128    1289   3      | 7      126    26     | 2589   4      258    |
 | 1259   1259   4      | 3      12     8      | 6      29     7      |
 | 6      28     7      | 5      4      9      | 1      3      28     |
 *--------------------------------------------------------------------*
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Postby wintder » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:11 am

I'd like these moved to Interactive.

People with an actual question may be ignored.
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Postby DonM » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:23 am

wintder wrote:I'd like these moved to Interactive.

People with an actual question may be ignored.


I respectfully request that it stay. The ordinarily looking-for-something-interesting traffic is greater here while the Interactive Games section doesn't appear to be specifically about this kind of practical-solving sudoku & seems to attract a narrower audience. I don't think that anyone's separate questions will be ignored. Besides, the original reason I came up with this idea was that there wasn't much going on here at all. Still, if the concensus is that this isn't a good place for it, I'd be willing to move it to the General Puzzle section.
Last edited by DonM on Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby storm_norm » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:59 am

nothing fancy here
(2=8)r5c3 - (8)r5c789 = (8)r6c8 - (8=9)r1c9 - (9=2)r8c8 - (2)r9c9 = (2)r9c2; r456c2 <> 2

don't forget the xyz-wing in box 6 that removes the 2's in r5c89
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Postby Luke » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:35 am

wintder wrote:I'd like these moved to Interactive.

People with an actual question may be ignored.

SAM #1 seemed to do pretty well in this slot, garnering more replies than any thread in the history of "Help with particular puzzles." Maybe it just showed how slow things were at the time...

Little "strong elbow" UR on (26) r67c56, r6c5<>2.
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Postby StrmCkr » Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:10 am

how about an aur:

this is extened from the above i noticed afteward but.

doesnt accomplish much but its fun:

Code: Select all
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
 | 89     3      5      | 2      7      1      | 4      89@    6      |
 | 12489  12489  1289   | 6      89     5      | 7      1289   3      |
 | 1289   7      6      | 4      89     3      | 289    5      128    |
 |----------------------+----------------------+----------------------|
 | 3      1256   12     | 8      256    4      | 25     7      9      |
 | 2458   24568  28     | 9      3      7      | 258    1268   1258   |
 | 7      25689  289    | 1      5-26   26@    | 3      268@   4      |
 |----------------------+----------------------+----------------------|
 | 1289   1289   3      | 7      126@   26@    | 2589   4      258    |
 | 1259   1259   4      | 3      12@    8      | 6      29@    7      |
 | 6      28     7      | 5      4      9      | 1      3      28     |
 *--------------------------------------------------------------------*


AUR:

(2)R6C8 = (6)R6C6
|
(6)R6C8 = (2)R6C6
|
(8)R6C8 = (9)R1C8 = (2)R8C8 =(1)R8C5 = (26)R7C56+(26)R6C56 UR =>

R6C5 <>26
Last edited by StrmCkr on Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Myth Jellies » Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:54 am

Code: Select all
 *--------------------------------------------------------------------*
 |*89     3      5      | 2      7      1      | 4     *89     6      |
 | 12489  12489  1289   | 6     *89     5      | 7     *89+12  3      |
 |*89+12  7      6      | 4     *89     3      |-289    5     #12     |
 |----------------------+----------------------+----------------------|
 | 3      1256   12     | 8      256    4      | 25     7      9      |
 | 2458   24568  28     | 9      3      7      | 258    1268   1258   |
 | 7      25689  289    | 1      256    26     | 3      268    4      |
 |----------------------+----------------------+----------------------|
 | 128    1289   3      | 7      126    26     | 2589   4      258    |
 | 1259   1259   4      | 3      12     8      | 6      29     7      |
 | 6      28     7      | 5      4      9      | 1      3      28     |
 *--------------------------------------------------------------------*


A slightly more elaborate BUG-Lite+2 deduction

BUG-Lite:(89#6)r1c18|r2c58|r3c15
||
(1&2)r3c19
||
(1&2)r2c8|r3c9 => r3c7 <> 2
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Re: Suggest A Move (SAM#2)

Postby aran » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:27 pm

DonM wrote:
Code: Select all
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
 | 89     3      5      | 2      7      1      | 4      89     6      |
 | 12489  12489  1289   | 6      89     5      | 7      1289   3      |
 | 1289   7      6      | 4      89     3      | 289    5      12     |
 |----------------------+----------------------+----------------------|
 | 3      1256   12     | 8      256    4      | 25     7      9      |
 | 2458   24568  28     | 9      3      7      | 258    1268   1258   |
 | 7      25689  289    | 1      256    26     | 3      268    4      |
 |----------------------+----------------------+----------------------|
 | 128    1289   3      | 7      126    26     | 2589   4      258    |
 | 1259   1259   4      | 3      12     8      | 6      29     7      |
 | 6      28     7      | 5      4      9      | 1      3      28     |
 *--------------------------------------------------------------------*

12(r2c8+r3c9)=12r3c1 : <2>r3c7
(not hidden pair12=>deadly pattern=>12=>pair12=> <2>)
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Postby Luke » Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:52 pm

StrmCkr wrote:how about an aur:

this is extened from the above i noticed afteward but.

doesnt accomplish much but its fun:

Code: Select all
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
 | 89     3      5      | 2      7      1      | 4      89@    6      |
 | 12489  12489  1289   | 6      89     5      | 7      1289   3      |
 | 1289   7      6      | 4      89     3      | 289    5      128    |
 |----------------------+----------------------+----------------------|
 | 3      1256   12     | 8      256    4      | 25     7      9      |
 | 2458   24568  28     | 9      3      7      | 258    1268   1258   |
 | 7      25689  289    | 1      5-26   26@    | 3      268@   4      |
 |----------------------+----------------------+----------------------|
 | 1289   1289   3      | 7      126@   26@    | 2589   4      258    |
 | 1259   1259   4      | 3      12@    8      | 6      29@    7      |
 | 6      28     7      | 5      4      9      | 1      3      28     |
 *--------------------------------------------------------------------*


AUR:

(2)R6C8 = (6)R6C6
|
(6)R6C8 = (2)R6C6
|
(8)R6C8 = (9)R1C8 = (2)R8C8 =(1)R8C5 = (26)R7C56+(26)R6C56 UR =>

R6C5 <>26

Strm, I see this move as a chain that would start with (26)r6c68=8, and end with -UR(26)r6c56=(5)r6c5. Your vertical notation seems to be a very efficient way to write a complicated chain.

What's this notation called and how do I get up to speed on it? I also see this used in Kraken cell demonstrations.
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Postby DonM » Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:02 pm

Luke451 wrote:Little "strong elbow" UR on (26) r67c56, r6c5<>2.


Not so little, actually important.:) In the past, this might have been dismissed as a type 3 UR with nothing to use it with. Here it produces an elimination that opens the door to an AUR move that places a digit:

AUR(56)r46c25
||
(12-6)r4c2=r4c5-(6=5)r6c5
||
(2-5)r4c5=(5)r6c5
||
(289)r6c2

=> r6c2<>5->r6c5=5

Luke451 wrote:What's this notation called and how do I get up to speed on it? I also see this used in Kraken cell demonstrations.

Luke, it's not as difficult as it looks. Take any almost UR pattern and look on the group of digits, other than the UR bivalues, in each cell as strongly linked to each other ie. one of them has to exist at some point or the deadly pattern occurs. Following these examples should help you get up to speed on it.

As to the name, I think it's just referred to as the multi-line format vs. single line. We had an interesting discussion on the pros & cons of it on Eureka some time back, but unfortunately the content of the earliest challenge threads started by Mike Barker & continued by re'born, that the discussion occurred in have been totally wiped out as a result of possible hacker activity. At that time, I went back to my records and some early threads and the earliest example of the multi-line format that I found (if memory serves) was by Myth Jellies describing an AALS pattern. However, Mike Barker used it to describe his Kraken moves so maybe he used it earlier. Not sure about that.

Generally speaking the multi-line format is great to notate AUR patterns, AALSs, some BUG patterns and AAICs/Krakens. I resisted its use in AAICs initially, but became a strong believer later.:)
Last edited by DonM on Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby StrmCkr » Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:15 pm

Strm, I see this move as a chain that would start with (26)r6c68=8, and end with -UR(26)r6c56=(5)r6c5. Your vertical notation seems to be a very efficient way to write a complicated chain.

What's this notation called and how do I get up to speed on it? I also see this used in Kraken cell demonstrations.


im not sure what to call the notation i seen it mostly on sudoku.org.uk forms.
{eureka notation mostly}... used for complex chains helps with krakens.
either myth jellies or mike baker started it.

..alot of the history on the subject is missing from a breach of a hacker on the above site..

i suck with notating any type of chain

i attempt to use that as a way to show complexities easier.
so that some one can atleast figure out what im showing...

i usually list left to right implications streams.
when i write them out. starting from a common cell.

(note: that many cells can be used as the starting point for the same listed chain - with the exception of the ur cells it linksd back onto)

im not completly sure how to post anythign proper.

(alot of it has to due what specifically the diffrence is between = and - designations)

donM or TTT ,

Myth (nice to see you posting stuff again!)

may help alot more on that..

some: random stuff as well.
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Postby ronk » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:56 pm

StrmCkr wrote:AUR:

(2)R6C8 = (6)R6C6
|
(6)R6C8 = (2)R6C6
|
(8)R6C8 = (9)R1C8 = (2)R8C8 =(1)R8C5 = (26)R7C56+(26)R6C56 UR =>

R6C5 <>26

aur(26)r67c56:(r6c5 =5|1= r7c5) -1- r8c5 -2- r8c8 -9- r1c8 -8- als:r6c68 -26- r6c5 ==> r6c5<>26

DonM wrote:it produces an elimination that opens the door to an AUR move that places a digit:

AUR(56)r46c25
||
(12-6)r4c2=r4c5-(6=5)r6c5
||
(2-5)r4c5=(5)r6c5
||
(289)r6c2

=> r6c2<>5->r6c5=5

Looks like something's missing in the (289)r6c2 line.
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Postby aran » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:34 am

Luke451 wrote:
Code: Select all
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
 | 89     3      5      | 2      7      1      | 4      89@    6      |
 | 12489  12489  1289   | 6      89     5      | 7      1289   3      |
 | 1289   7      6      | 4      89     3      | 289    5      128    |
 |----------------------+----------------------+----------------------|
 | 3      1256   12     | 8      256    4      | 25     7      9      |
 | 2458   24568  28     | 9      3      7      | 258    1268   1258   |
 | 7      25689  289    | 1      5-26   26@    | 3      268@   4      |
 |----------------------+----------------------+----------------------|
 | 1289   1289   3      | 7      126@   26@    | 2589   4      258    |
 | 1259   1259   4      | 3      12@    8      | 6      29@    7      |
 | 6      28     7      | 5      4      9      | 1      3      28     |
 *--------------------------------------------------------------------*


AUR:

(2)R6C8 = (6)R6C6
|
(6)R6C8 = (2)R6C6
|
(8)R6C8 = (9)R1C8 = (2)R8C8 =(1)R8C5 = (26)R7C56+(26)R6C56 UR =>

R6C5 <>26
Strm, I see this move as a chain that would start with (26)r6c68=8, and end with -UR(26)r6c56=(5)r6c5. Your vertical notation seems to be a very efficient way to write a complicated chain.

What's this notation called and how do I get up to speed on it? I also see this used in Kraken cell demonstrations.


I read Strm's move as an examination of what happens under all three possibilities for r6c8.
The chain which you have in mind - in effect the same move seen differently-isn't "complicated" at all to write
:)
Last edited by aran on Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby DonM » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:59 am

ronk wrote:aur(26)r67c56:(r6c5 =5|1= r7c5) -1- r8c5 -2- r8c8 -9- r1c8 -8- als:r6c68 -26- r6c5 ==> r6c5<>26

DonM wrote:it produces an elimination that opens the door to an AUR move that places a digit:

AUR(56)r46c25
||
(12-6)r4c2=r4c5-(6=5)r6c5
||
(2-5)r4c5=(5)r6c5
||
(289)r6c2

=> r6c2<>5->r6c5=5

Looks like something's missing in the (289)r6c2 line.

Silly me, I'm just not seeing what's missing.:?:
Last edited by DonM on Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby ronk » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:28 am

DonM wrote:
ronk wrote:
DonM wrote:it produces an elimination that opens the door to an AUR move that places a digit:

AUR(56)r46c25
||
(12-6)r4c2=r4c5-(6=5)r6c5
||
(2-5)r4c5=(5)r6c5
||
(289)r6c2

=> r6c2<>5->r6c5=5

Looks like something's missing in the (289)r6c2 line.

Silly me, I'm just not seeing what's missing.:?:

Sorry, I never even noticed your intermediate r6c2<>5. I took your "move that places a digit" statement literally ... and expected the last line to read ...

(289-5)r6c2 = (5)r6c5.
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