Sudokus with an original rare shape

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

Postby JPF » Tue May 23, 2006 7:21 am

ab wrote:
tso wrote: (Is 5x5 the largest possible empty rectangle as well?)

Here's a puzzle with a 7x4 rectangle...

Here's a puzzle with a 6x5 rectangle :
Code: Select all
 3 . . | 8 . . | 5 . .
 . 5 6 | 2 7 9 | 8 3 4
 . 8 . | . . . | . . 9
-------+-------+-------
 7 1 . | . . . | . . 3
 5 9 . | . . . | . . 8
 . 3 . | . . . | . . 1
-------+-------+-------
 2 4 . | . . . | . . 6
 . 6 1 | 3 5 4 | 9 7 2
 . . . | . . 6 | . . .

 


with one of its minimal :
Code: Select all
 3 . . | 8 . . | 5 . .
 . . 6 | 2 . 9 | 8 . 4
 . 8 . | . . . | . . 9
-------+-------+-------
 7 . . | . . . | . . 3
 5 9 . | . . . | . . 8
 . . . | . . . | . . 1
-------+-------+-------
 2 4 . | . . . | . . .
 . . 1 | . 5 4 | 9 7 .
 . . . | . . 6 | . . .


JPF
JPF
2017 Supporter
 
Posts: 3752
Joined: 06 December 2005
Location: Paris, France

Postby Ruud » Tue May 23, 2006 10:37 am

This is the largest empty rectangle possible: 7x7

Code: Select all
8 . 9|2 4 3|6 . 7
. . .|. . .|. . .
3 . .|. . .|. . 4
-----+-----+-----
1 . .|. . .|. . 6
4 . .|. . .|. . 1
6 . .|. . .|. . 5
-----+-----+-----
5 . .|. . .|. . 8
. . .|. . .|. . .
9 . 8|7 1 4|5 . 3


It has a unique solution, but the diagonals must also contain digits 1-9. Sudoku-X boldly goes where no classic sudoku has gone before.:D

Here is a version with less clues, symmetry type I and it solves with singles only:

Code: Select all
. . 5|2 6 9|4 . .
. . .|. . .|. . .
8 . .|. . .|. . 5
-----+-----+-----
1 . .|. . .|. . 3
4 . .|. . .|. . 7
3 . .|. . .|. . 1
-----+-----+-----
6 . .|. . .|. . 2
. . .|. . .|. . .
. . 4|9 2 1|3 . .

Ruud.
Ruud
 
Posts: 664
Joined: 28 October 2005

Postby m_b_metcalf » Tue May 23, 2006 12:38 pm

Ruud wrote:
It has a unique solution, but the diagonals must also contain digits 1-9. Sudoku-X boldly goes where no classic sudoku has gone before.


Indeed. Here's one from my collection with a 5 x 7 hollow.
Code: Select all
  .  .  .  8  9  7  .  .  .  X-sudoku
  4  6  .  .  .  .  .  8  9
  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
  9  7  .  .  .  .  .  5  8
  8  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  7
  3  5  .  .  .  .  .  2  4
  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
  1  9  .  .  .  .  .  7  6
  .  .  .  7  5  6  .  .  .



Another interesting type is where a partial template is formed of predetermined values, like the digits 1-9 that snake (almost) in order around the perimter of this:

Code: Select all

  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9
  6  .  7  .  .  .  .  .  1
  5  .  .  9  .  .  .  .  2
  4  .  .  .  7  9  .  .  3
  3  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  4
  2  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  5
  9  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  6
  8  3  .  .  .  5  .  .  7
  7  6  5  3  4  2  1  9  8


Regards,

Mike Metcalf
User avatar
m_b_metcalf
2017 Supporter
 
Posts: 8363
Joined: 15 May 2006
Location: Berlin

Postby tso » Tue May 23, 2006 7:58 pm

JPF wrote:Here's a puzzle with a 6x5 rectangle :


Excellent!


Ruud wrote:This is the largest empty rectangle possible: 7x7


Nice!

This is yet another reason that Sudoku X really should have been the standard puzzle to begin with. Other reasons: Magic Squares, which have common ancestors, always include the two main diagonals -- and every school kid knows that. Diagonals are easy to see, unlike other types of disjoint groups. The two additional groups allow for three cell forcing chains and other modified tactics, making solving potentially more interesting without making more complicated or opaque.
tso
 
Posts: 798
Joined: 22 June 2005

Postby JPF » Tue May 23, 2006 10:31 pm

Here's a puzzle with a 8 x 4 empty rectangle :

Code: Select all
 . 3 . | . . 8 | . . .
 . . 4 | . . 2 | . . .
 . . 7 | . . 3 | . 4 .
-------+-------+-------
 2 9 5 | 1 6 4 | 8 7 3
 . . . | . . . | . . 1
 . . . | . . . | . . 9
-------+-------+-------
 . . . | . . . | . . 8
 . . . | . . . | . . 7
 6 1 8 | 7 3 5 | 9 2 4



and one minimal :
Code: Select all
 . 3 . | . . 8 | . . .
 . . 4 | . . 2 | . . .
 . . 7 | . . 3 | . 4 .
-------+-------+-------
 2 9 . | 1 6 . | . 7 3
 . . . | . . . | . . 1
 . . . | . . . | . . 9
-------+-------+-------
 . . . | . . . | . . 8
 . . . | . . . | . . 7
 . 1 8 | 7 . 5 | 9 2 .

any improvement on the Sudoku-X side ?:)

JPF
JPF
2017 Supporter
 
Posts: 3752
Joined: 06 December 2005
Location: Paris, France

Postby ab » Tue May 23, 2006 10:54 pm

here's a puzzle with a 39 square rectangle:
Code: Select all
 . 4 . | . 8 . | 9 . .
 8 . . | 6 . . | . 7 .
 . . 7 | . . . | . . 3
 ------+-------+------
 . 1 . | . . . | . . .
 6 . . | . . . | . . 5
 . . . | . . . | . 8 .
 ------+-------+------
 3 . . | . . . | 1 . .
 . 2 . | . . 3 | . . 4
 1 . 8 | . 2 . | . 5 .


:)
ab
 
Posts: 451
Joined: 06 September 2005

Postby fermat » Wed May 24, 2006 4:12 am

tso wrote:This is yet another reason that Sudoku X really should have been the standard puzzle to begin with.


Hello? This whole thing started with humans making grids. There would be. perhaps, one a month instead of several a day.

People are just human, you know?
fermat
 
Posts: 105
Joined: 29 March 2006

Postby tso » Wed May 24, 2006 8:08 pm

JPF wrote:Could you give an example on how to use this program. (command lines, etc...)


Not appropriate to talk about here. I'll PM you. But all you need to know is in the manual in zip file.
tso
 
Posts: 798
Joined: 22 June 2005

Postby JPF » Thu May 25, 2006 11:45 pm

tso wrote:Not appropriate to talk about here.
Sorry.
tso wrote:I'll PM you.
Thanks.

JPF
JPF
2017 Supporter
 
Posts: 3752
Joined: 06 December 2005
Location: Paris, France

Postby Pyrrhon » Sat May 27, 2006 8:48 pm

Wasn't there a 9x5 rectangle sudoku x in a japanese puzzle journal?

Pyrrhon
Pyrrhon
 
Posts: 240
Joined: 26 April 2006

Postby JPF » Sat May 27, 2006 10:09 pm

In this thread, tso and Nick70 posted these puzzles :

tso
Code: Select all
 . . . | . 5 4 | 6 8 3
 . . . | . . 9 | . . 1
 . . . | . . . | 2 . 9
-------+-------+------
 . . . | . . . | . 7 8
 8 . . | . . . | . . 5
 6 9 . | . . . | . . .
-------+-------+------
 5 . 6 | . . . | . . .
 2 . . | 8 . . | . . .
 3 4 7 | 5 6 . | . . .



Nick70
Code: Select all
 . . . | . 8 7 | 3 2 .
 . . . | . . 9 | . . 4
 . . . | . . . | 6 . 5
-------+-------+-------
 . . . | . . . | . 7 9
 1 . . | . . . | . . 8
 5 6 . | . . . | . . .
-------+-------+-------
 3 . 1 | . . . | . . .
 6 . . | 5 . . | . . .
 . 8 7 | 1 6 . | . . .



With the same idea, here is a puzzle with only 18 clues :
Code: Select all
 . . . | . 4 9 | . . .
 . . . | . . 8 | 1 . .
 . . . | . . . | 7 3 .
-------+-------+-------
 . . . | . . . | . 8 5
 7 . . | . . . | . . 4
 1 3 . | . . . | . . .
-------+-------+-------
 . 5 8 | . . . | . . .
 . . 4 | 7 . . | . . .
 . . . | 1 6 . | . . .


JPF
JPF
2017 Supporter
 
Posts: 3752
Joined: 06 December 2005
Location: Paris, France

Interesting shape but

Postby claudiarabia » Sun May 28, 2006 7:49 pm

JPF wrote:
Nick 70
Code: Select all
 . . . | . 8 7 | 3 2 .
 . . . | . . 9 | . . 4
 . . . | . . . | 6 . 5
-------+-------+-------
 . . . | . . . | . 7 9
 1 . . | . . . | . . 8
 5 6 . | . . . | . . .
-------+-------+-------
 3 . 1 | . . . | . . .
 6 . . | 5 . . | . . .
 . 8 7 | 1 6 . | . . .



JPF


You posted 3 nice puzzles. But this puzzle has more than one solution.

Claudia
claudiarabia
 
Posts: 288
Joined: 14 May 2006

Postby JPF » Sun May 28, 2006 8:19 pm

Here is one solution :
Code: Select all
 4 9 5 | 6 8 7 | 3 2 1
 2 1 6 | 3 5 9 | 7 8 4
 7 3 8 | 4 2 1 | 6 9 5
-------+-------+-------
 8 4 3 | 2 1 6 | 5 7 9
 1 7 2 | 9 3 5 | 4 6 8
 5 6 9 | 7 4 8 | 1 3 2
-------+-------+-------
 3 5 1 | 8 7 2 | 9 4 6
 6 2 4 | 5 9 3 | 8 1 7
 9 8 7 | 1 6 4 | 2 5 3


what is the other one ?

JPF
JPF
2017 Supporter
 
Posts: 3752
Joined: 06 December 2005
Location: Paris, France

There is no other

Postby claudiarabia » Sun May 28, 2006 11:01 pm

JPF wrote:Here is one solution :what is the other one ?

JPF




Code: Select all
 . . 5 | 6 8 7 | 3 2 1
 2 1 6 | 3 5 9 | 7 8 4
 7 3 8 | . . 1 | 6 9 5
-------+-------+-------
 8 . 3 | . 1 6 | 5 7 9
 1 7 . | 9 3 5 | . 6 8
 5 6 9 | . . . | . . .
-------+-------+-------
 3 5 1 | . . . | . 4 6
 6 . . | 5 . . | . . 7
 . 8 7 | 1 6 . | . 5 .


Sorry, there is no other solution than yours. I wasn't able to solve it by logic. So I typed it into my program and it told me that there were several solutions. So I doubted at first. When I force it to guess then a (your) solution came but I can't force it to give me all the other solutions or even just the information of how many they are.:( I checked other machines then. The half-solved puzzle above is, what can be solved without guessing by other programs. And after more searching I got the statement that there is one solution only.

And thus I know finally the limits of my program. This really is a tricky one. Is there really a phase in which some Sudokus can't be solved by logic only?
:?:
Claudia
claudiarabia
 
Posts: 288
Joined: 14 May 2006

Re: There is no other

Postby JPF » Tue May 30, 2006 10:27 am

claudiarabia wrote:I checked other machines then. The half-solved puzzle above is, what can be solved without guessing by other programs.

Simple Sudoku , Sudo Cue solve this puzzle without a great deal of difficulty.
I’m sure almost all the solvers in the Net solve it easily as well.

you wrote:Is there really a phase in which some Sudokus can't be solved by logic only?

I don’t want to enter into the endless philosophical debate “what is logic or not”.
You will find in this forum many threads and posts discussing this topic at length.

you wrote:But this puzzle has more than one solution.

One can’t say that a puzzle has more than one solution only because it can't be solved by using a given set of techniques.
To my knowledge, the only cases we can prove that a puzzle has (at least) 2 solutions :

- there are only 7 different digits or less (e.g. no 8 and 9, for example)
- there is a deadly pattern
- or we can find and show 2 different solutions...

you wrote:And thus I know finally the limits of my program. This really is a tricky one

I'm sure you are going to improve it.
We all started like that.:)

JPF
JPF
2017 Supporter
 
Posts: 3752
Joined: 06 December 2005
Location: Paris, France

PreviousNext

Return to General