Sudoku space

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

Postby ravel » Mon May 07, 2007 5:32 pm

Here are some results i already have:

With the operations change, remove and add a clue, in a quick check i got the following average numbers needed to get from one to an equivalent of another randomly generated puzzle:
21 clues: 18.3
24 clues: 21.5
27 clues: 24.3
So as a rule of thumb you will need about "number of clues minus 3" such operations.

As expected, the number increases, when an exotic pattern is used, e.g. this puzzle by Ocean with 3 empty boxes
...1.23.4............5.67.84.1...8.5.........2.9...6.71.23.9............9.84.7...
compared to a random 24-clue needed 25 operations.

coloin wrote:and if we wanted to find more 17 clue puzzles finding the common clues within these patterns
here
This is from the "clues in the box distribution" of Gordons 17s...
Code: Select all
  1405 122222222:B 
Some of the 1405 puzzles with this pattern might give you a high concordence ?
It's not clear for me, what you want, but this might be interesting for you:
There are 1565 17-clues with this box/clue distribution in Gordon's list now. When i calculated the puzzles with maximum common clues relatively to the first one, it turned out that almost all of those with 15/16 common clues and some with 14 had the same 14 clues in common:

Code: Select all
.......24.1...8.......7....6..2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.16..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7........61.7.4.5.....3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6..2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1.9.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..6.......7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..6.......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43.............
..9....24.1...8.......7.........1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.16..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43.............
.......24.16..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.6.4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
ravel
 
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Joined: 21 February 2006

Postby RW » Mon May 07, 2007 8:00 pm

ravel wrote:There are 1565 17-clues with this box/clue distribution in Gordon's list now. When i calculated the puzzles with maximum common clues relatively to the first one, it turned out that almost all of those with 15/16 common clues and some with 14 had the same 14 clues in common:

That's very interesting. There's only 254574 solutions to that 14 clue pattern. Maybe someone with the proper tools should make a complete search on it, might be more 17s there. Eleven more cells are automatically defined by the given digits, so you only need to test all possibilities in the 56 missing cells, many of which don't have that many possibilities. Shouldn't take too long, or?

RW
RW
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Posts: 1000
Joined: 16 March 2006

Postby Havard » Mon May 07, 2007 9:44 pm

RW wrote:Shouldn't take too long, or?

Nope, just one minute!:)
Did not bother to check for similar ones. There will probably be a few:

Code: Select all
6......24.1...89......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.9.....7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.6.4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..6.......7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..9.......7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.6...........
9......24.1...86......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.6.....7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.9.4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..6.......7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..9.......7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.9...........
..6....24.1...8.......7.........1.9.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
..6....24.1...8.......7.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
..6....24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
..9....24.1...8.......7.........1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.16..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.16..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.16..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43.............
.......24.16..8.......7.........1...4...9...3...2......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.19..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.19..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.19..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43.............
.......24.19..8.......7.........1...4...6...3...2......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.6.....7.........1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.9.....7.........1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.....6.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.....9.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6..2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6..2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1.9.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3..82......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.6...........
.......24.1...8.......7....9..2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9..2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1..64.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3..82......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.9...........
.......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..46......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..49......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7........61.7.4.5.....3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7........91.7.4.5.....3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43.....6.......
.......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43.....9.......


Havard
Havard
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 25 December 2005

Postby coloin » Mon May 07, 2007 10:46 pm

WOW.....Thanks ravel thats exactly what I meant !
coloin wrote:and if we wanted to find more 17 clue puzzles finding the common clues within these patterns

I was beginninig to think that comparing over 1400 puzzles with each other wasnt quite a sensible thing to do - but it has come up !

Now.......the obvious question

How many of them are new:?:

If Harvard's 14 plus 3 was quick - [my complete 14plus3 will run overnight edit - it will take weeks !].....

I see now how Harvard has got his results now......!

The 6 and 9 clue areequivalent note......

We are on the edge of sudoku space !

C
Last edited by coloin on Mon May 07, 2007 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
coloin
 
Posts: 1638
Joined: 05 May 2005

Postby Havard » Mon May 07, 2007 11:19 pm

Here are a list of a few more that popped out when I was searching in near "sudoku space" to the others:
Code: Select all
9......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
6......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
6......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
6......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.6.4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..9.......7....81.6..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..6.......7....81.9..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.6...........
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.9.4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.9...........
..9....24.1...8.......5.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
..9....24.1...8.......5.........1..94.......3...2......6....81.5..43.............
..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
..6....24.1...8.......5.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
..6....24.1...8.......5.........1..64.......3...2......9....81.5..43.............
..6....24.1...8.......7.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
.......24.19..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.16..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
.......24.16..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.9..43.............
.......24.19..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.....9.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.....6.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3..82......7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3..82......7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.6...........
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.9...........
.......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..46......3..........7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..49......3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......94.1...8.......7........61.7.4.5.....3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......94.1...8.......7........21.7.4.5.....3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......64.1...8.......7........91.7.4.5.....3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......64.1...8.......7........21.7.4.5.....3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.9..43.....6.......
.......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.9..43.....5.......
.......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.6..43.....9.......
.......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.6..43.....5.......
Havard
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 25 December 2005

Postby Havard » Mon May 07, 2007 11:31 pm

using this one as a new 14-clue:
Code: Select all
.......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............


I got these:
Code: Select all
5......24.1...89......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
5......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
5......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
5......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
5......24.1...8.9.....7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.5.4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..5.......7....81.6..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..9.......7....81.6..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......6...7....81.6..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.5...........
9......24.1...85......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.5.....7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.9.4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..5.......7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..9.......7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......6...7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.9...........
..5....24.1...8.......7.........1.9.4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
..5....24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
..5....24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
..9....24.1...8.......7.........1.5.4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
.......24.15..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.15..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........5.7....81.6..43.............
.......24.15..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......6...7....81.6..43.............
.......24.15..8.......7.........1...4...9...3...2......7....81.6..43.............
.......24.19..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.19..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.6..43.............
.......24.19..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......6...7....81.6..43.............
.......24.19..8.......7.........1...4...5...3...2......7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.5.....7.........1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.9.....7.........1...4.......3...2....5.7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.....5.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.....9.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5..2.16..4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5..2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1.9.4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1..94.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3..82......7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3...2....5.7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.5...........
.......24.1...8.......7....9..2.16..4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9..2.1...4.......3........5.7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1.5.4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1..54.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3..82......7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2....5.7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.9...........
.......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..45......3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..49......3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7........51.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7........91.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.6..43.....5.......
.......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.6..43.....9.......


But a little alarm started ringing when I got the exact same number as I got for the last 14 clue, both with +3, and their "closest friends". I think a bit of iso-checking is in order here...

Code: Select all
9......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
5......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.5.4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..9.......7....81.5..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..5.......7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.5...........
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.9.4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.9...........
..9....24.1...8.......6.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
..9....24.1...8.......6.........1..94.......3...2......5....81.6..43.............
..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
..5....24.1...8.......6.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
..5....24.1...8.......6.........1..54.......3...2......9....81.6..43.............
..5....24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
.......24.19..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.15..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
.......24.15..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........5.7....81.9..43.............
.......24.19..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.....9.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.....5.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3..82......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3..82......7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3...2....5.7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.5...........
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.9...........
.......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..45......3..........7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..49......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......94.1...8.......7........51.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......94.1...8.......7........21.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......54.1...8.......7........91.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......54.1...8.......7........21.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.9..43.....5.......
.......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.9..43.....6.......
.......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43.....9.......
.......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43.....6.......
Havard
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 25 December 2005

Postby ronk » Mon May 07, 2007 11:33 pm

coloin wrote:Now.......the obvious question

How many of them are new:?:


WOW! It looks like these 15 from Havard's first list of 72 are NEW. Haven't looked at the second list.
Code: Select all
9......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..6.......7....81.5..43.............
..9....24.1...8.......7.........1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.19..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.19..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.19..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.9.....7.........1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.....9.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9..2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9..2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3..82......7....81.5..43.............
ronk
2012 Supporter
 
Posts: 4764
Joined: 02 November 2005
Location: Southeastern USA

Postby coloin » Mon May 07, 2007 11:42 pm

BEEP BEEP

I have done a "full" 15plus2 search onthe pattern with a 6@r1c1
Code: Select all
6......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.6...........
6......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.9.....7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.6.4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..9.......7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..6.......7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...89......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43.............

and with the 2 @r4c4
Code: Select all
.......24.19..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.16..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..46......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.....6.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.19..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.....9.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.16..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..49......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6..2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6..2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9..2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9..2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............

All in harvards list.
So fairly comprehensive

ravel - did you just pick a random puzzle from the list ? Does this mean there will be other 14 patterns ?

C
Last edited by coloin on Mon May 07, 2007 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
coloin
 
Posts: 1638
Joined: 05 May 2005

Postby Havard » Mon May 07, 2007 11:52 pm

ronk wrote:WOW! It looks like these 15 from Havard's first list of 72 are NEW.


you want more then?:D
no seriously, are they really?!?

Code: Select all
5......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.5.4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..5.......7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.5...........
..9....24.1...8.......6.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
..9....24.1...8.......6.........1..94.......3...2......5....81.6..43.............
..5....24.1...8.......6.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
..5....24.1...8.......6.........1..54.......3...2......9....81.6..43.............
..5....24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
.......24.15..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
.......24.15..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........5.7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.....5.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3..82......7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3...2....5.7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.5...........
.......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..45......3..........7....81.9..43.............
.......94.1...8.......7........51.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......94.1...8.......7........21.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......54.1...8.......7........91.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......54.1...8.......7........21.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43.............
5......24.1...86......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.6.....7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..6.......7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......9...7....81.9..43.............
6......24.1...85......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
6......24.1...8.5.....7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..5.......7....81.9..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......9...7....81.9..43.............
..5....24.1...8.......7.........1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
..5....24.1...8.......7.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
..6....24.1...8.......7.........1.5.4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
..6....24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
.......24.15..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......9...7....81.9..43.............
.......24.15..8.......7.........1...4...6...3...2......7....81.9..43.............
.......24.16..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......9...7....81.9..43.............
.......24.16..8.......7.........1...4...5...3...2......7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.5.....7.........1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.6.....7.........1...4.......3...2....5.7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5..2.19..4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5..2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1..64.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6..2.19..4.......3..........7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6..2.1...4.......3........5.7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1.5.4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1..54.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2....5.7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7........51.7.4.9.....3..........7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7........61.7.4.9.....3..........7....81.9..43.............
..6....24.1...8.......9.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
..6....24.1...8.......9.........1..64.......3...2......5....81.9..43.............
..5....24.1...8.......9.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
..5....24.1...8.......9.........1..54.......3...2......6....81.9..43.............
.......64.1...8.......7........51.7.4.9.....3..........7....81.9..43.............
.......64.1...8.......7........21.7.4.9.....3..........7....81.9..43.............
.......54.1...8.......7........61.7.4.9.....3..........7....81.9..43.............
.......54.1...8.......7........21.7.4.9.....3..........7....81.9..43.............


Havard
Havard
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 25 December 2005

Postby ronk » Tue May 08, 2007 12:11 am

Havard wrote:
ronk wrote:WOW! It looks like these 15 from Havard's first list of 72 are NEW.

you want more then?:D
no seriously, are they really?!?

Pretty sure.

Of the 262 puzzles you've posted, only 37 are non-isomorphic. But of those 37, the 15 posted earlier are not in Gordon Royle's list of 17s.

Congrats to all.
ronk
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Posts: 4764
Joined: 02 November 2005
Location: Southeastern USA

Postby Havard » Tue May 08, 2007 12:23 am

ronk wrote:Of the 262 puzzles you've posted, only 37 are non-isomorphic. But of those 37, the 15 posted earlier are not in Gordon Royle's list of 17s.


that's strange. My iso-check tells me that all these puzzles are different. Would you mind checking for me?

EDIT: Found bug in code. Got same result as ronk.
Havard
 
Posts: 377
Joined: 25 December 2005

Postby coloin » Tue May 08, 2007 1:15 am

I must formally thank ravel for persevering with my hunch - it would appear we have moved on in another leap !

A final check on the pattern of the new ones found :
Code: Select all
.......24.1...8.6.....7.........1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.9.....7.........1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.16..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43.............
.......24.19..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3..82......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3..82......7....81.5..43.............
..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
..6....24.1...8.......7.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
..6....24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1..64.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
..9....24.1...8.......7.........1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
..6....24.1...8.......7.........1.9.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1.9.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.....6.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.....9.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9..2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6..2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....6..2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9..2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.19..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.5..43.............
.......24.16..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.6.....7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.9.....7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
.......24.19..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.9.4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..9.......7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..6.......7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.6.4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..9.......7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..6.......7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............
6......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43.............
.......24.16..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............


Is there another popular 14 clue subgrid......?

C
coloin
 
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Joined: 05 May 2005

Postby RW » Tue May 08, 2007 4:33 am

Congrats on the new findings, if they really are new.

ronk, the third puzzle in your list of new 17s is the same as the 13th in ravel's list here...

RW
RW
2010 Supporter
 
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Postby ravel » Tue May 08, 2007 7:28 am

coloin wrote:Is there another popular 14 clue subgrid......?
I have calculated most common clues for the next 10 puzzles in this list now. Not so popular, this one is the best (6 with the same 15 clues - only 2910 solutions):
Code: Select all
.......81.3.2.....5...........6..23.1..4.....7........4...7........1.8...6....3..
........1.3.2.....5...8.......6..23.1..4.....7........4...7........1..9..6....3..
.......8153.2.................6..23.1..4.....7........4...7........1.8...6....3..
........1.3.2.8...5...........6..23.1..4.....7........4...7........1.8...6....3..
........1.3.29....5...........6..23.1..4.....7........4...7........1.8...6....3..
5.......1.3.2.........9.......6..23.1..4.....7........4...7........1.8...6....3..
.....5..1.3.2.......8.........6..23.1..4.....7........4...7........1.8...6....3..
ravel
 
Posts: 998
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Postby Havard » Tue May 08, 2007 8:17 am

ok, got the iso-check working, and did a complete search for 17 on this 13 clue:
Code: Select all
.......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3..........7....81....43.............


which gave these unique puzzles: (the previous 37 are of course in here)
Code: Select all
5......24.1...86......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
5......24.1...8.6.....7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7...6.....1...4..2....3.2........7....81....43.............
9......24.1...8.......7...5.....1...4..2....3.9........7....81....43.............
5......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2....6.7....81....43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.5.4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..5.......7....81.6..43.............
9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..5.......7....81.6..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3.......69.7....81....43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........6.7....81...943.............
5......24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....36.........7....81....43.6...........
5......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......6...7....81.6..43.............
5......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.5...........
..5....24.1...8.......7...6.....1...4.....6.3...2......7....81....43.............
..5....24.1...8.......7.........1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
..5....24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
..9....24.1...8.......6.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.6..43.............
..5....24.1...8.......7.........1..64..2....3.8........7....81....43.............
..5....24.1...8.......7.........1..64..2....3..8.......7....81....43.............
..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..54..2....3..8.......7....81....45.............
.......2451...8.......7.......2.1...46......3........9.7....81....43.............
.......2451...8.......7.........1..74..2....3..........7....81...643.............
.......2451...8.......7.........1...4.6.....3...2......7....81....43....9........
.......2451...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81...643.............
.......2471...8.......7.......2.1...4.5.....3........6.7....81....43.............
.......2471...8.......7.........1.5.4.6.....3...2......7....81....43.............
.......2471...8.......7.........1..54.6.....3...2......7....81....43.............
.......24.15..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.15..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........5.7....81.6..43.............
.......24.15..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......6...7....81.6..43.............
.......24.15..8.......7.........1...4...6...3...2......7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.5.....7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81...643.............
.......24.1...8.5.....7.........1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.....5.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.....5.7.........1..74..2....3..........7....81...643.............
.......24.1...8.......7...5.....1...4..2....368........7....81....43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5..2.16..4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5..2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1..64.......3..12......7....81....43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1..64.......3...2......7....81.9..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3..82......7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3...2....5.7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2....5.7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.5...........
.......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..45......3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7........51.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43.............
.......24.1...8.......7.........15..4.82....36.........7....81....43.............
.......24.1...8.......7.........1..54..2....368........7....81....43.............
.......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....358....6...7....81....43.............
.......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43.....6.......

Anyone care to run it by gfroyles list?

Havard
Havard
 
Posts: 377
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