The New Sudoku Players' Forum

by **ravel** » Mon May 07, 2007 5:32 pm

Here are some results i already have:

With the operations change, remove and add a clue, in a quick check i got the following average numbers needed to get from one to an equivalent of another randomly generated puzzle:
21 clues: 18.3
24 clues: 21.5
27 clues: 24.3
So as a rule of thumb you will need about "number of clues minus 3" such operations.

As expected, the number increases, when an exotic pattern is used, e.g. this puzzle by Ocean with 3 empty boxes
...1.23.4............5.67.84.1...8.5.........2.9...6.71.23.9............9.84.7...
compared to a random 24-clue needed 25 operations.

coloin wrote:and if we wanted to find more 17 clue puzzles finding the common clues within these patterns
here
This is from the "clues in the box distribution" of Gordons 17s...
Code: Select all
1405 122222222:B
Some of the 1405 puzzles with this pattern might give you a high concordence ?

It's not clear for me, what you want, but this might be interesting for you:
There are 1565 17-clues with this box/clue distribution in Gordon's list now. When i calculated the puzzles with maximum common clues relatively to the first one, it turned out that almost all of those with 15/16 common clues and some with 14 had the same 14 clues in common:

Code: Select all: .......24.1...8.......7....6..2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.16..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7........61.7.4.5.....3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6..2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1.9.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..6.......7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..6.......7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43............. ..9....24.1...8.......7.........1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. .......24.16..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43............. .......24.16..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.6.4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............

by RW » Mon May 07, 2007 8:00 pm

ravel wrote:There are 1565 17-clues with this box/clue distribution in Gordon's list now. When i calculated the puzzles with maximum common clues relatively to the first one, it turned out that almost all of those with 15/16 common clues and some with 14 had the same 14 clues in common:

That's very interesting. There's only 254574 solutions to that 14 clue pattern. Maybe someone with the proper tools should make a complete search on it, might be more 17s there. Eleven more cells are automatically defined by the given digits, so you only need to test all possibilities in the 56 missing cells, many of which don't have that many possibilities. Shouldn't take too long, or?

RW

by **Havard** » Mon May 07, 2007 9:44 pm

RW wrote:Shouldn't take too long, or?

Nope, just one minute!

Did not bother to check for similar ones. There will probably be a few:

Code: Select all: 6......24.1...89......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.9.....7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.6.4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..6.......7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..9.......7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.6........... 9......24.1...86......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.6.....7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.9.4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..6.......7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..9.......7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.9........... ..6....24.1...8.......7.........1.9.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. ..6....24.1...8.......7.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. ..6....24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. ..9....24.1...8.......7.........1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. ..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. ..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. .......24.16..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.16..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.5..43............. .......24.16..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43............. .......24.16..8.......7.........1...4...9...3...2......7....81.5..43............. .......24.19..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.19..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.5..43............. .......24.19..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43............. .......24.19..8.......7.........1...4...6...3...2......7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.6.....7.........1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.9.....7.........1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.....6.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.....9.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6..2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6..2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1.9.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3..82......7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.6........... .......24.1...8.......7....9..2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9..2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1..64.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3..82......7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.9........... .......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..46......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..49......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7........61.7.4.5.....3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7........91.7.4.5.....3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43.....6....... .......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43.....9.......

Havard

by **coloin** » Mon May 07, 2007 10:46 pm

WOW.....Thanks ravel thats exactly what I meant !

coloin wrote:and if we wanted to find more 17 clue puzzles finding the common clues within these patterns

I was beginninig to think that comparing over 1400 puzzles with each other wasnt quite a sensible thing to do - but it has come up !

Now.......the obvious question

How many of them are new :?:

If Harvard's 14 plus 3 was quick - [my complete 14plus3 will run overnight edit - it will take weeks !].....

I see now how Harvard has got his results now......!

The 6 and 9 clue areequivalent note......

We are on the edge of sudoku space !

C

by **Havard** » Mon May 07, 2007 11:19 pm

Here are a list of a few more that popped out when I was searching in near "sudoku space" to the others:

Code: Select all: 9......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 6......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 6......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 6......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.6.4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..9.......7....81.6..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..6.......7....81.9..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.6........... 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.9.4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.9........... ..9....24.1...8.......5.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. ..9....24.1...8.......5.........1..94.......3...2......6....81.5..43............. ..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. ..6....24.1...8.......5.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. ..6....24.1...8.......5.........1..64.......3...2......9....81.5..43............. ..6....24.1...8.......7.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. .......24.19..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.16..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. .......24.16..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.9..43............. .......24.19..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.....9.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.....6.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3..82......7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3..82......7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.6........... .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.9........... .......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..46......3..........7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..49......3..........7....81.6..43............. .......94.1...8.......7........61.7.4.5.....3..........7....81.5..43............. .......94.1...8.......7........21.7.4.5.....3..........7....81.5..43............. .......64.1...8.......7........91.7.4.5.....3..........7....81.5..43............. .......64.1...8.......7........21.7.4.5.....3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.9..43.....6....... .......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.9..43.....5....... .......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.6..43.....9....... .......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.6..43.....5.......

by **Havard** » Mon May 07, 2007 11:31 pm

using this one as a new 14-clue:

Code: Select all: .......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43.............

I got these:

Code: Select all: 5......24.1...89......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. 5......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 5......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 5......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 5......24.1...8.9.....7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.5.4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..5.......7....81.6..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..9.......7....81.6..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......6...7....81.6..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.5........... 9......24.1...85......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.5.....7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.9.4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..5.......7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..9.......7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......6...7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.9........... ..5....24.1...8.......7.........1.9.4.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. ..5....24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. ..5....24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. ..9....24.1...8.......7.........1.5.4.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. ..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. ..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. .......24.15..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.15..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........5.7....81.6..43............. .......24.15..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......6...7....81.6..43............. .......24.15..8.......7.........1...4...9...3...2......7....81.6..43............. .......24.19..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.19..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.6..43............. .......24.19..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......6...7....81.6..43............. .......24.19..8.......7.........1...4...5...3...2......7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.5.....7.........1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.9.....7.........1...4.......3...2....5.7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.....5.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.....9.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5..2.16..4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5..2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1.9.4.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1..94.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3..82......7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3...2....5.7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.5........... .......24.1...8.......7....9..2.16..4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9..2.1...4.......3........5.7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1.5.4.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1..54.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3..82......7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2....5.7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.9........... .......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..45......3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..49......3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7........51.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7........91.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.6..43.....5....... .......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.6..43.....9.......

But a little alarm started ringing when I got the exact same number as I got for the last 14 clue, both with +3, and their "closest friends". I think a bit of iso-checking is in order here...

Code: Select all: 9......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 5......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.5.4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..9.......7....81.5..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..5.......7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.5........... 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.9.4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.9........... ..9....24.1...8.......6.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. ..9....24.1...8.......6.........1..94.......3...2......5....81.6..43............. ..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. ..5....24.1...8.......6.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. ..5....24.1...8.......6.........1..54.......3...2......9....81.6..43............. ..5....24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. .......24.19..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.15..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. .......24.15..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........5.7....81.9..43............. .......24.19..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.....9.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.....5.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3..82......7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3..82......7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3...2....5.7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.5........... .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.9........... .......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..45......3..........7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..49......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......94.1...8.......7........51.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43............. .......94.1...8.......7........21.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43............. .......54.1...8.......7........91.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43............. .......54.1...8.......7........21.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.9..43.....5....... .......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.9..43.....6....... .......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43.....9....... .......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43.....6.......

by **ronk** » Mon May 07, 2007 11:33 pm

coloin wrote:Now.......the obvious question

How many of them are new

WOW! It looks like these 15 from Havard's first list of 72 are NEW. Haven't looked at the second list.

Code: Select all: 9......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..6.......7....81.5..43............. ..9....24.1...8.......7.........1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. ..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. .......24.19..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.19..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.5..43............. .......24.19..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.9.....7.........1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.....9.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9..2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9..2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3..82......7....81.5..43.............

by **coloin** » Mon May 07, 2007 11:42 pm

BEEP BEEP

I have done a "full" 15plus2 search onthe pattern with a 6@r1c1

Code: Select all: 6......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43.6........... 6......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.9.....7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.6.4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..9.......7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..6.......7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...89......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43.............

and with the 2 @r4c4

Code: Select all: .......24.19..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.16..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..46......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.....6.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.19..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.....9.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.16..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..49......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6..2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6..2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9..2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9..2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............

All in harvards list.
So fairly comprehensive

ravel - did you just pick a random puzzle from the list ? Does this mean there will be other 14 patterns ?

C

by **Havard** » Mon May 07, 2007 11:52 pm

ronk wrote:WOW! It looks like these 15 from Havard's first list of 72 are NEW.

you want more then?

no seriously, are they really?!?

Code: Select all: 5......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.5.4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..5.......7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.5........... ..9....24.1...8.......6.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. ..9....24.1...8.......6.........1..94.......3...2......5....81.6..43............. ..5....24.1...8.......6.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. ..5....24.1...8.......6.........1..54.......3...2......9....81.6..43............. ..5....24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. .......24.15..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. .......24.15..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........5.7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.....5.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3..82......7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3...2....5.7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43.5........... .......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..45......3..........7....81.9..43............. .......94.1...8.......7........51.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43............. .......94.1...8.......7........21.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43............. .......54.1...8.......7........91.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43............. .......54.1...8.......7........21.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43............. 5......24.1...86......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.6.....7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..6.......7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......9...7....81.9..43............. 6......24.1...85......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. 6......24.1...8.5.....7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..5.......7....81.9..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......9...7....81.9..43............. ..5....24.1...8.......7.........1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. ..5....24.1...8.......7.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. ..6....24.1...8.......7.........1.5.4.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. ..6....24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. .......24.15..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......9...7....81.9..43............. .......24.15..8.......7.........1...4...6...3...2......7....81.9..43............. .......24.16..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......9...7....81.9..43............. .......24.16..8.......7.........1...4...5...3...2......7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.5.....7.........1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.6.....7.........1...4.......3...2....5.7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5..2.19..4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5..2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1..64.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6..2.19..4.......3..........7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6..2.1...4.......3........5.7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1.5.4.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1..54.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2....5.7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7........51.7.4.9.....3..........7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7........61.7.4.9.....3..........7....81.9..43............. ..6....24.1...8.......9.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. ..6....24.1...8.......9.........1..64.......3...2......5....81.9..43............. ..5....24.1...8.......9.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. ..5....24.1...8.......9.........1..54.......3...2......6....81.9..43............. .......64.1...8.......7........51.7.4.9.....3..........7....81.9..43............. .......64.1...8.......7........21.7.4.9.....3..........7....81.9..43............. .......54.1...8.......7........61.7.4.9.....3..........7....81.9..43............. .......54.1...8.......7........21.7.4.9.....3..........7....81.9..43.............

Havard

by **ronk** » Tue May 08, 2007 12:11 am

Havard wrote:
ronk wrote:WOW! It looks like these 15 from Havard's first list of 72 are NEW.

you want more then?
no seriously, are they really?!?

Pretty sure.

Of the 262 puzzles you've posted, only 37 are non-isomorphic. But of those 37, the 15 posted earlier are not in Gordon Royle's list of 17s.

Congrats to all.

by **Havard** » Tue May 08, 2007 12:23 am

ronk wrote:Of the 262 puzzles you've posted, only 37 are non-isomorphic. But of those 37, the 15 posted earlier are not in Gordon Royle's list of 17s.

that's strange. My iso-check tells me that all these puzzles are different. Would you mind checking for me?

EDIT: Found bug in code. Got same result as ronk.

by **coloin** » Tue May 08, 2007 1:15 am

I must formally thank ravel for persevering with my hunch - it would appear we have moved on in another leap !

A final check on the pattern of the new ones found :

Code: Select all: .......24.1...8.6.....7.........1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.9.....7.........1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2....9.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.5..43............. .......24.16..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43............. .......24.19..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3..82......7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3..82......7....81.5..43............. ..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. ..6....24.1...8.......7.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. ..6....24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. ..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1..64.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. ..9....24.1...8.......7.........1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. ..6....24.1...8.......7.........1.9.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1.9.4.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.....6.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.....9.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9..2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6..2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....6..2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9..2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.5..43............. .......24.19..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........9.7....81.5..43............. .......24.16..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.6.....7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.9.....7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.........1..64.......3...2......7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.5..43............. .......24.19..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.9.4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..9.......7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..6.......7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.9.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.6.4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..9.......7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..6.......7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.19..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.5..43............. 6......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......5...7....81.5..43............. .......24.16..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.5..43.............

Is there another popular 14 clue subgrid......?

C

by RW » Tue May 08, 2007 4:33 am

Congrats on the new findings, if they really are new.

ronk, the third puzzle in your list of new 17s is the same as the 13th in ravel's list here...

RW

by **ravel** » Tue May 08, 2007 7:28 am

coloin wrote:Is there another popular 14 clue subgrid......?

I have calculated most common clues for the next 10 puzzles in this list now. Not so popular, this one is the best (6 with the same 15 clues - only 2910 solutions):

Code: Select all: .......81.3.2.....5...........6..23.1..4.....7........4...7........1.8...6....3.. ........1.3.2.....5...8.......6..23.1..4.....7........4...7........1..9..6....3.. .......8153.2.................6..23.1..4.....7........4...7........1.8...6....3.. ........1.3.2.8...5...........6..23.1..4.....7........4...7........1.8...6....3.. ........1.3.29....5...........6..23.1..4.....7........4...7........1.8...6....3.. 5.......1.3.2.........9.......6..23.1..4.....7........4...7........1.8...6....3.. .....5..1.3.2.......8.........6..23.1..4.....7........4...7........1.8...6....3..

by **Havard** » Tue May 08, 2007 8:17 am

ok, got the iso-check working, and did a complete search for 17 on this 13 clue:

Code: Select all: .......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3..........7....81....43.............

which gave these unique puzzles: (the previous 37 are of course in here)

Code: Select all: 5......24.1...86......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.6.....7.......2.1...4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 5......24.1...8.6.....7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7...6.....1...4..2....3.2........7....81....43............. 9......24.1...8.......7...5.....1...4..2....3.9........7....81....43............. 5......24.1...8.......7....6....1...4.......3...2....6.7....81....43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.16..4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1.5.4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..5.......7....81.6..43............. 9......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3..5.......7....81.6..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3.......69.7....81....43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........6.7....81...943............. 5......24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....36.........7....81....43.6........... 5......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3......6...7....81.6..43............. 5......24.1...8.......7.........1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.5........... ..5....24.1...8.......7...6.....1...4.....6.3...2......7....81....43............. ..5....24.1...8.......7.........1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. ..5....24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. ..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..54.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. ..9....24.1...8.......6.........1..94.......3...2......7....81.6..43............. ..5....24.1...8.......7.........1..64..2....3.8........7....81....43............. ..5....24.1...8.......7.........1..64..2....3..8.......7....81....43............. ..9....24.1...8.......7.........1..54..2....3..8.......7....81....45............. .......2451...8.......7.......2.1...46......3........9.7....81....43............. .......2451...8.......7.........1..74..2....3..........7....81...643............. .......2451...8.......7.........1...4.6.....3...2......7....81....43....9........ .......2451...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81...643............. .......2471...8.......7.......2.1...4.5.....3........6.7....81....43............. .......2471...8.......7.........1.5.4.6.....3...2......7....81....43............. .......2471...8.......7.........1..54.6.....3...2......7....81....43............. .......24.15..8.......7.......2.17..4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.15..8.......7.......2.1...4.......3........5.7....81.6..43............. .......24.15..8.......7.........1...4..2....3......6...7....81.6..43............. .......24.15..8.......7.........1...4...6...3...2......7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.5.....7.......2.1..74.......3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.5.....7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81...643............. .......24.1...8.5.....7.........1...4.......3...2....6.7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.....5.7.......281...4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.....5.7.........1..74..2....3..........7....81...643............. .......24.1...8.......7...5.....1...4..2....368........7....81....43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5..2.16..4.......3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5..2.1...4.......3........6.7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1.6.4.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1..64.......3..12......7....81....43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1..64.......3...2......7....81.9..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4..2....3........7.7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3..82......7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3...2....5.7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....9....1...4.......3...2....5.7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7....5....1...4.......3...2......7....81.6..43.5........... .......24.1...8.......7.......2.15..45......3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7........51.7.4.6.....3..........7....81.6..43............. .......24.1...8.......7.........15..4.82....36.........7....81....43............. .......24.1...8.......7.........1..54..2....368........7....81....43............. .......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....358....6...7....81....43............. .......24.1...8.......7.........1...4..2....3........7.7....81.5..43.....6.......

Anyone care to run it by gfroyles list?

Havard

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