The New Sudoku Players' Forum

[crudmonkey]

How unusual is it for sudoku puzzles to NOT use numbers?

I found one site that was using stock ticker symbols in place of numbers. You'd match up nine tickers as though they were numbered 1-9.

Thanks!

[motris]

I'd say that it is more common than you might think. The main news journal of the royal society of chemistry publishes a sudoku using 9 chemical elements in place of 1-9. A recent American book "ESPN Baseball Sudoku" - amongst the most ridiculous books I've seen - has replaced 1-9 with the positions in baseball. I'm still asking myself why? The recent Google Da Vinci Code Quest had several sudoku (small jigsaws, and a 9x9) that strictly used symbols in place of 1-9.

My opinion with all of these is that, typically, they add nothing to the puzzle and are "gimmicky" in the bad way a puzzle can be gimmicky.

Thomas Snyder

[crudmonkey]

My opinion with all of these is that, typically, they add nothing to the puzzle and are "gimmicky" in the bad way a puzzle can be gimmicky.

Thanks, Tom. I guess I'm into the "gimmicky" aspect of them. I did find it a little more difficult to look at, say, a ticker symbol versus a number. Otherwise, the game itself was exactly the same.

I'll have to look up the chemistry and baseball variations!

[underquark]

I suppose any set of 9 unique symbols would do the trick but can you imagine making sense of pencil marks with these?:

[ab]

My opinion with all of these is that, typically, they add nothing to the puzzle and are "gimmicky" in the bad way a puzzle can be gimmicky.

Thomas Snyder

I'd agree that using different symbols is gimmicky, but that in itself can be fun, depending on the context. However I'd disagree that they add nothing to the puzze.

This concept was discussed on a different thread and many people thought using a different set of symbols makes the puzzle slightly harder.

There may be many reasons for this:

one is that you might not have a name in your head for the symbol;

another is that the symbols may not have a special ordering as the numbers 1-9 do and so it's harder to keep track of what symbols you have considered.

Admittedly these considerations do not add much to the difficulty of the puzzle, but they are interesting if simply from a psychological standpoint.

[lunababy_moonchild]

another is that the symbols may not have a special ordering as the numbers 1-9 do and so it's harder to keep track of what symbols you have considered.

I liked the recent Stock Market Symbols Sudoku that the Daily Mail started doing for just the above reason. Unfortunately it was printed incorrectly and was impossible to do so I declined to attempt any more, but I thought it added much to the dimension of the game. The symbols themselves were not that difficult to draw so the pencil marks were not hard. Unfortunately to create one using only stock market symbols I'd have to create a puzzle with numbers and then replace said numbers with the symbols, which is too much work!

Luna

[motris]

I recognize your main point ab. Yes, the puzzles seem "harder" because you need to keep track of a different set of elements in your head - we do get too good at seeing those nine numbers - but they require nothing new logically when solving. An X-wing on 7's is the same as an X-wing on LF's or Mn's or IBM's. So, to me, they "add nothing".

"Wordoku" puzzles are the next step up, with the use of letters and a buried keyword doing a little more to make the final solution "interesting", but even these don't do much for me as I find myself anagramming the givens to get a phrase in my head to help keep track of the nine letters as I solve. More often than not, I'll anagram to the answer I was meant to find before I even start the puzzle - but then wordplay skills and sudoku skills are quite different and others' experiences will vary.


To me, when puzzle writers put an effort into trying to make a puzzle stand out visually for being different, I'd prefer a little more thought be put into connecting the new element into the puzzle. Puzzlinks.com had its own take on the baseball sudoku that used the concept of a box score. At some point I'd like to offer a better wrinkle on the chemistry one. But, for starters, consider the only puzzle I've posted on this site (in the variants section) which is a "gimmicky" one that uses US state initials as the givens. The style described in this thread would have taken 9 states (AL, NY, WV, ...) and had you solve a vanilla sudoku with those 2-character strings as the nine elements. Instead, I used a set of nine states that shared 9 common letters so that I could use single letters as the entries. I then designed in "state-shaped" nonets in this jigsaw variant and my eighteen givens were exclusively the initials of each of the nine states in the puzzle arranged nicely in each "state". It has a great visual impact and is a good puzzle to boot. I'd much prefer writers aspire to good themed puzzles like this, and not just reprogram their computer generators to change 1 into a cirlce and 2 into a triangle and so on.

[crudmonkey]

another is that the symbols may not have a special ordering as the numbers 1-9 do and so it's harder to keep track of what symbols you have considered.

I liked the recent Stock Market Symbols Sudoku that the Daily Mail started doing for just the above reason.
Luna

Luna:

Do you have a link to share for the Daily Mail one? The one I started playing with is here.

[lunababy_moonchild]

Luna:

Do you have a link to share for the Daily Mail one? The one I started playing with is here.

They don't seem to be posting it on the internet (Daily Mail). They were calling it the FTSE sudoku - FTSE being Financial Times Stock Exchange.

I don't trust the puzzle setter anyway, as I said, the first one was impossible to solve (being generous, it could have been a printing error) and one of the other 'general' puzzles proved to be impossible to solve too, so obviously not well made.

Luna

[udosuk]

I once posted a "smiley" sudoku X in here. The puzzle is gfroyle's creation... and it probably could not be solved "as it is"...

[ab]

But, for starters, consider the only puzzle I've posted on this site (in the variants section) which is a "gimmicky" one that uses US state initials as the givens. The style described in this thread would have taken 9 states (AL, NY, WV, ...) and had you solve a vanilla sudoku with those 2-character strings as the nine elements. Instead, I used a set of nine states that shared 9 common letters so that I could use single letters as the entries. I then designed in "state-shaped" nonets in this jigsaw variant and my eighteen givens were exclusively the initials of each of the nine states in the puzzle arranged nicely in each "state". It has a great visual impact and is a good puzzle to boot. I'd much prefer writers aspire to good themed puzzles like this, and not just reprogram their computer generators to change 1 into a cirlce and 2 into a triangle and so on.

can you post a link to this puzzle so that we can see how you have added value to the problem.

i agree with you that the best puzzles have some added value as you suggest. for me the wordoku puzzles don't do that as you can often work out the anagram from the givens in the puzzle.

i think the best way to have some added value would be to ask for the value of a given cell which cannot be determined until most of the puzzle is completed. this requires a great puzzle setter. maybe your problem also requires a good setter, which is why i request the link.

i remember someone posted a puzzle in which each cell had values from 11 to 99 excluding numbers containing a zero. in this puzzle the solution for the units was a valid sudoku grid as was the tens, but you needed the combination of both to solve the puzzle. ie the units on their own were not a valid puzzle and likewise the tens. This puzzle certainly had added value. it may have similarities with your puzzle!

[motris]

I remember doing an 11-99 puzzle exactly as you describe on mathpuzzle.com (it may have been posted here as well, but that is where I saw it); it was indeed a nice puzzle. Towards the end, it had a repeating pattern in the placements which made it easier to solve but it was a very fresh concept. I've wondered if such a concept can be applied to other puzzles with two letter abbreviations (chemical elements being one possibility, but there is not enough depth to not have to repeat some of them).

I forgot to include the link to the US state jigsaw - the post is here.

[Pi]

do you people remeber the Fruit-Doku

I can't remember who made it originally but i love it

It could be played across a table with real fruit



(if the picture isn't there it's because i'm looking for it before i upload it, it'll be here in a minute)