SE 8.3 puzzle with yellyfish near the end

Everything about Sudoku that doesn't fit in one of the other sections

SE 8.3 puzzle with yellyfish near the end

Postby urhegyi » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:57 am

How exceptional is it to find examples finishing like thisone?
Image
Code: Select all
15..6..8...3.7.9.....4..............93....1.22.6....78...6.4.1...7.9.8..6.1.2.4.3
urhegyi
 
Posts: 611
Joined: 13 April 2020

Re: SE 8.3 puzzle with yellyfish near the end

Postby eleven » Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:16 pm

did not see the jellyfish ;)
eleven
 
Posts: 2785
Joined: 10 February 2008

Re: SE 8.3 puzzle with yellyfish near the end

Postby denis_berthier » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:24 am

.
Hi urhegyi,

As a puzzle always has lots of resolution paths, even if you restrict the types of rules one may use, it's risky to ask anything about "the" end of a solution.
On the other hand, if you want people to start from a particular resolution state, giving it in png format isn't very useful.

The puzzle given in string format is in W5 or Z6.

Using a new functionality of CSP-Rules (to be published soon) that allows to modify the simplest-first strategy by focusing on some groups of rules, I tried several solutions that allow Subsets (including Fish) only after:
- bivalue-chains of length 4
- bivalue-chains of length 5
- bivalue-chains of length 6
- z-chains of length 4
- z-chains of length 5
- whips of length 4

In none of these cases (which include the main possibilities consistent with the ratings of the puzzle) could I see a Fish appear.

I'm curious to see the resolution path leading you to a jellyfish.
denis_berthier
2010 Supporter
 
Posts: 3166
Joined: 19 June 2007
Location: Paris

Re: SE 8.3 puzzle with yellyfish near the end

Postby urhegyi » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:25 am

Here a possible solution path with a yellyfish nearby the end(found by hodoku solver):
Hidden Text: Show
Code: Select all
Solution

Givens:
15..6..8...3.7.9.....4..............93....1.22.6....78...6.4.1...7.9.8..6.1.2.4.3

Initial state:
.-------------------.--------------------------.--------------------.
| 1     5      249  | 239      6      239      | 237    8      47   |
| 48    2468   3    | 1258     7      1258     | 9      2456   1456 |
| 78    26789  289  | 4        1358   123589   | 23567  2356   1567 |
:-------------------+--------------------------+--------------------:
| 4578  1478   458  | 1235789  13458  12356789 | 356    34569  4569 |
| 9     3      458  | 578      458    5678     | 1      456    2    |
| 2     14     6    | 1359     1345   1359     | 35     7      8    |
:-------------------+--------------------------+--------------------:
| 358   289    2589 | 6        358    4        | 257    1      579  |
| 345   24     7    | 135      9      135      | 8      256    56   |
| 6     89     1    | 578      2      578      | 4      59     3    |
'-------------------'--------------------------'--------------------'


Locked Candidates Type 1 (Pointing): 7 in b1 => r3c79<>7
Locked Candidates Type 1 (Pointing): 7 in b4 => r4c46<>7
Locked Candidates Type 1 (Pointing): 9 in b6 => r4c46<>9
Hidden Rectangle: 7/8 in r3c12,r4c12 => r4c2<>8
AIC: 8 8- r2c1 -4- r1c3 =4= r1c9 =7= r7c9 =9= r9c8 -9- r9c2 -8 => r23c2,r7c1<>8
Locked Candidates Type 2 (Claiming): 8 in c2 => r7c3<>8
Discontinuous Nice Loop: 1 r4c2 -1- r6c2 -4- r8c2 =4= r8c1 -4- r2c1 -8- r3c1 -7- r3c2 =7= r4c2 => r4c2<>1
Hidden Single: r6c2=1
Hidden Single: r6c5=4
Skyscraper: 4 in r1c9,r5c8 (connected by r15c3) => r2c8,r4c9<>4
AIC: 7 7- r3c1 -8- r2c1 -4- r8c1 =4= r8c2 -4- r4c2 -7 => r3c2,r4c1<>7
Hidden Single: r3c1=7
Hidden Single: r4c2=7
Discontinuous Nice Loop: 6 r3c9 -6- r3c2 =6= r2c2 =4= r8c2 =2= r8c8 =6= r8c9 -6- r3c9 => r3c9<>6
Discontinuous Nice Loop: 5 r4c5 -5- r5c5 -8- r7c5 =8= r7c2 -8- r9c2 -9- r9c8 =9= r7c9 =7= r1c9 =4= r2c9 =1= r3c9 -1- r3c5 =1= r4c5 => r4c5<>5
Discontinuous Nice Loop: 8 r4c5 -8- r7c5 =8= r7c2 -8- r9c2 -9- r9c8 =9= r7c9 =7= r1c9 =4= r2c9 =1= r3c9 -1- r3c5 =1= r4c5 => r4c5<>8
Discontinuous Nice Loop: 6 r4c9 -6- r8c9 -5- r9c8 -9- r4c8 =9= r4c9 => r4c9<>6
AIC: 5 5- r4c9 -9- r4c8 =9= r9c8 -9- r9c2 -8- r7c2 =8= r7c5 -8- r5c5 -5 => r4c46,r5c8<>5
Discontinuous Nice Loop: 5 r5c4 -5- r5c5 -8- r7c5 =8= r7c2 -8- r9c2 -9- r9c8 =9= r4c8 =4= r5c8 =6= r5c6 =7= r5c4 => r5c4<>5
Hidden Rectangle: 7/8 in r5c46,r9c46 => r9c6<>8
Discontinuous Nice Loop: 5 r5c6 -5- r5c5 -8- r7c5 =8= r7c2 -8- r9c2 -9- r9c8 =9= r4c8 =4= r5c8 =6= r5c6 => r5c6<>5
Grouped AIC: 5 5- r4c9 -9- r4c8 =9= r9c8 -9- r9c2 -8- r9c4 =8= r7c5 -8- r5c5 -5- r6c46 =5= r6c7 -5 => r4c78<>5
Discontinuous Nice Loop: 5 r7c7 -5- r6c7 =5= r4c9 =9= r7c9 =7= r7c7 => r7c7<>5
Empty Rectangle: 5 in b5 (r36c7) => r3c5<>5
Discontinuous Nice Loop: 7/8 r5c6 =6= r5c8 =4= r5c3 -4- r1c3 =4= r1c9 =7= r1c7 -7- r7c7 -2- r8c8 =2= r8c2 =4= r2c2 =6= r3c2 -6- r3c7 =6= r4c7 -6- r4c6 =6= r5c6 => r5c6<>7, r5c6<>8
Naked Single: r5c6=6
Naked Single: r5c8=4
Hidden Single: r5c4=7
Hidden Single: r9c6=7
Finned X-Wing: 8 c16 r24 fr3c6 => r2c4<>8
AIC: 4/8 8- r2c1 -4- r2c2 =4= r8c2 =2= r8c8 -2- r7c7 -7- r7c9 =7= r1c9 =4= r1c3 -4- r4c3 =4= r4c1 -4 => r2c1<>4, r4c1<>8
Naked Single: r2c1=8
Discontinuous Nice Loop: 1 r3c6 -1- r3c9 -5- r4c9 -9- r4c8 =9= r9c8 =5= r9c4 =8= r4c4 -8- r4c6 =8= r3c6 => r3c6<>1
Discontinuous Nice Loop: 3 r3c6 -3- r3c8 =3= r4c8 =9= r9c8 =5= r9c4 =8= r4c4 -8- r4c6 =8= r3c6 => r3c6<>3
Discontinuous Nice Loop: 5 r3c6 -5- r3c7 =5= r6c7 -5- r4c9 -9- r4c8 =9= r9c8 =5= r9c4 =8= r4c4 -8- r4c6 =8= r3c6 => r3c6<>5
Locked Candidates Type 1 (Pointing): 5 in b2 => r2c89<>5
AIC: 6 6- r2c8 -2- r8c8 =2= r8c2 =4= r2c2 =6= r3c2 -6 => r2c2,r3c78<>6
Hidden Single: r3c2=6
Hidden Single: r4c7=6
Locked Candidates Type 1 (Pointing): 9 in b1 => r7c3<>9
Naked Pair: 2,4 in r28c2 => r7c2<>2
XY-Chain: 1 1- r3c9 -5- r4c9 -9- r4c8 -3- r4c5 -1 => r3c5<>1
Hidden Single: r3c9=1
Hidden Single: r4c5=1
Naked Triple: 2,4,6 in r2c289 => r2c46<>2
X-Wing: 2 r28 c28 => r3c8<>2
Naked Triple: 3,5,9 in r349c8 => r8c8<>5
Jellyfish: 5 r2369 c4678 => r8c46<>5
Locked Pair: 1,3 in r8c46 => r7c5,r8c1<>3
Hidden Single: r7c1=3
Hidden Single: r3c5=3
Naked Single: r3c8=5
Naked Single: r3c7=2
Naked Single: r9c8=9
Naked Single: r2c8=6
Naked Single: r3c3=9
Full House: r3c6=8
Naked Single: r7c7=7
Naked Single: r4c8=3
Full House: r8c8=2
Naked Single: r9c2=8
Full House: r9c4=5
Naked Single: r2c9=4
Naked Single: r1c7=3
Full House: r6c7=5
Full House: r1c9=7
Full House: r4c9=9
Naked Single: r7c9=5
Full House: r8c9=6
Naked Single: r4c6=2
Naked Single: r8c2=4
Naked Single: r7c2=9
Full House: r2c2=2
Full House: r1c3=4
Naked Single: r2c4=1
Full House: r2c6=5
Naked Single: r7c5=8
Full House: r7c3=2
Full House: r8c1=5
Full House: r5c5=5
Full House: r4c1=4
Full House: r5c3=8
Full House: r4c3=5
Full House: r4c4=8
Naked Single: r1c6=9
Full House: r1c4=2
Naked Single: r8c4=3
Full House: r6c4=9
Full House: r6c6=3
Full House: r8c6=1

Solution:
.---------.---------.---------.
| 1  5  4 | 2  6  9 | 3  8  7 |
| 8  2  3 | 1  7  5 | 9  6  4 |
| 7  6  9 | 4  3  8 | 2  5  1 |
:---------+---------+---------:
| 4  7  5 | 8  1  2 | 6  3  9 |
| 9  3  8 | 7  5  6 | 1  4  2 |
| 2  1  6 | 9  4  3 | 5  7  8 |
:---------+---------+---------:
| 3  9  2 | 6  8  4 | 7  1  5 |
| 5  4  7 | 3  9  1 | 8  2  6 |
| 6  8  1 | 5  2  7 | 4  9  3 |
'---------'---------'---------'

urhegyi
 
Posts: 611
Joined: 13 April 2020

Re: SE 8.3 puzzle with yellyfish near the end

Postby eleven » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:40 pm

So to answer your question: It is even exceptional to arrive at a jellyfish at the end of this puzzle.
eleven
 
Posts: 2785
Joined: 10 February 2008

Re: SE 8.3 puzzle with yellyfish near the end

Postby denis_berthier » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:52 am

urhegyi wrote:Here a possible solution path with a yellyfish nearby the end(found by hodoku solver):
...

Thanks for the path.
I understand why it's difficult to find the Jellyfish. In your path, it appears after very long chains. Even shorter chains should normally be enough to solve the puzzle without any Jellyfish. It seems HoDoku has some strange way of ordering its rules.
When I spoke of the existence of many resolution paths, I was thinking "when one uses the simplest-first strategy". But there are obviously still more when one doesn't.

BTW, which version of Hodoku are you using? And can it be downloaded somewhere? The only version I know is unable of printing full resolution paths.
denis_berthier
2010 Supporter
 
Posts: 3166
Joined: 19 June 2007
Location: Paris

Re: SE 8.3 puzzle with yellyfish near the end

Postby 1to9only » Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:59 am

denis_berthier wrote:BTW, which version of Hodoku are you using? And can it be downloaded somewhere?

The output is from this version of Hodoku: https://sourceforge.net/projects/sudoku-explainer/files/HoDoKu.2.4.0.2020-10-30.7z/download
There is a later version here: https://sourceforge.net/projects/sudoku-explainer/files/HoDoKu.2.4.3.2021-03-25.7z/download
1to9only
 
Posts: 3992
Joined: 04 April 2018

Re: SE 8.3 puzzle with yellyfish near the end

Postby denis_berthier » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:28 am

1to9only wrote:
denis_berthier wrote:BTW, which version of Hodoku are you using? And can it be downloaded somewhere?

The output is from this version of Hodoku: https://sourceforge.net/projects/sudoku-explainer/files/HoDoKu.2.4.0.2020-10-30.7z/download
There is a later version here: https://sourceforge.net/projects/sudoku-explainer/files/HoDoKu.2.4.3.2021-03-25.7z/download

Thanks for the reference. I downloaded the last one, and l tried to compile it on my Mac (due to strict security on MacOS, one can't run any .jar files, unless provided by a registered developer).
As there's a build.xml file, I used ant (the most recent version); but I must have used the wrong parameters; I can't get any .jar file.
denis_berthier
2010 Supporter
 
Posts: 3166
Joined: 19 June 2007
Location: Paris

Re: SE 8.3 puzzle with yellyfish near the end

Postby 1to9only » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:15 am

I dont use IDE, I compile on Windows from the command-line.

I use a similar process to this:
- after unpacking HoDoKu.2.4.3.2021-03-25.7z
- in Hodoku folder, create class folder, and unzip dist\HoDoKu.jar into this folder
- you'll have the correct output files and structure, class\generator, class\help, etc.

Compile from the command-line:
cd src
javac.exe -g -Xlint -d ..\class generator\*.java
javac.exe -g -Xlint -d ..\class solver\*.java
javac.exe -g -Xlint -d ..\class sudoku\*.java
javac.exe -g -Xlint -d ..\class utils\*.java
cd ..

Package the jar:
cd class
jar.exe -cfm ..\Hodoku.jar META-INF\MANIFEST.MF *
cd ..

Run:
java.exe -jar Hodoku.jar
1to9only
 
Posts: 3992
Joined: 04 April 2018

Re: SE 8.3 puzzle with yellyfish near the end

Postby denis_berthier » Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:22 pm

OK, thanks. I don't have time right now, but I'll try it this way.
denis_berthier
2010 Supporter
 
Posts: 3166
Joined: 19 June 2007
Location: Paris

Re: SE 8.3 puzzle with yellyfish near the end

Postby 1to9only » Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:44 pm

denis_berthier wrote:The only version I know is unable of printing full resolution paths.

To do this in Hodoku:
  • Select 'Solution path' tab at top
  • Right-click on 'Solution 1' (or another tab if available) at bottom
  • Select 'Print...' option
  • You can 'Copy' the solution path and paste it for keeps!
  • Or use 'Print...'
1to9only
 
Posts: 3992
Joined: 04 April 2018


Return to General