How would you solve this (ER 9.2)?

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Re: How would you solve this (ER 9.2)?

Postby StrmCkr » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:18 am

Original
Savage attacking monster
Rated as 6282 by hodoku
Code: Select all
.--------------------.----------------------.----------------------.
| 5     1347    167  | 2368   123678  178   | 2467  4678    9      |
| 347   2       679  | 35689  36789   5789  | 4567  1       4678   |
| 17    179     8    | 2569   4       1579  | 3     567     267    |
:--------------------+----------------------+----------------------:
| 6     135789  1579 | 489    189     2     | 4579  345789  3478   |
| 2378  3789    279  | 4689   5       489   | 1     346789  234678 |
| 128   1589    4    | 7      1689    3     | 2569  5689    268    |
:--------------------+----------------------+----------------------:
| 247   457     3    | 1      279     4579  | 8     4679    467    |
| 1478  6       157  | 34589  3789    45789 | 479   2       1347   |
| 9     1478    127  | 2348   2378    6     | 47    347     5      |
'--------------------'----------------------'----------------------'


modified adding 1 clue Digit 4 @ R4C8 now rated a 7344
Code: Select all
.--------------------.----------------------.-------------------.
| 5     1347    167  | 2368   123678  178   | 2467  678   9     |
| 347   2       679  | 35689  36789   5789  | 4567  1     4678  |
| 17    179     8    | 2569   4       1579  | 3     567   267   |
:--------------------+----------------------+-------------------:
| 6     135789  1579 | 89     189     2     | 579   4     378   |
| 2378  3789    279  | 4689   5       489   | 1     6789  23678 |
| 128   1589    4    | 7      1689    3     | 2569  5689  268   |
:--------------------+----------------------+-------------------:
| 247   457     3    | 1      279     4579  | 8     679   467   |
| 478   6       57   | 34589  3789    45789 | 479   2     1     |
| 9     1478    127  | 248    278     6     | 47    3     5     |
'--------------------'----------------------'-------------------'
Some do, some teach, the rest look it up.
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Re: How would you solve this (ER 9.2)?

Postby SpAce » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:31 am

StrmCkr wrote:Original
Savage attacking monster
Rated as 6282 by hodoku
modified adding 1 clue Digit 4 @ R4C8 now rated a 7344

Hmm. I can't see the effect. With my Hodoku settings the rating drops (5786 => 5624). SE drops more: 8.3 => 7.8.
Code: Select all
   *             |    |               |    |    *
        *        |=()=|    /  _  \    |=()=|               *
            *    |    |   |-=( )=-|   |    |      *
     *                     \  ¯  /                   *   
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Re: How would you solve this (ER 9.2)?

Postby StrmCkr » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:55 am

Probably hierarchy order, the first on stalls and uses a forcing net that collapses alot of singles.
the 2nd dosent but uses mutiple chain steps adding extra points...ie more complicated solving path. Rated harder by the numbers I posted...

At least in my hodoku setup.. Which I'll now have to cross check... Seems odd as I didn't swap anything from one to the other.

Oh well, bad example I guess besides digging for an oddity from 8years back. That has next to no hard data on is like fishing for a needle in a hay stack.
Some do, some teach, the rest look it up.
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Re: How would you solve this (ER 9.2)?

Postby SpAce » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:54 am

I can see the effect if I uncheck "Allow ALS in chains": 6282 => 7344. In that case the first version uses a forcing chain which gives it a shorter solve path and thus fewer total points, like you said. Still I wouldn't say the added clue makes the puzzle more difficult, however! Who says the player has to use the simplest possible steps? And even if they do, it doesn't really add difficulty but just more work.

(The effect is even larger if I turn all ALS techniques off: 6282 => 8450.)

I'd like to see an example where the SE rating goes up with an added clue. That would more likely indicate that the player would actually need more difficult techniques to advance the puzzle.

PS. It seems that one clear bug in the Hodoku rating system is that it apparently gives the same point value to any AIC regardless if they have ALS-nodes or not. Group nodes add some points, though. That's weird, since chains using ALS-nodes are clearly much more advanced than plain vanilla chains or even grouped chains. Chain length should also matter.
Code: Select all
   *             |    |               |    |    *
        *        |=()=|    /  _  \    |=()=|               *
            *    |    |   |-=( )=-|   |    |      *
     *                     \  ¯  /                   *   
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Re: How would you solve this (ER 9.2)?

Postby totuan » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:10 pm

200e200w wrote:There are 9.x puzzles for which the hardest required techniques according to Hodoku are AIC's. These are 2 examples of them, with SE rating at the end of the line:
.4..1.2.......9.7..1..........43.6..8......5....2.....7.5..8......6..3..9........ (ER=9.2)

Thanks for the puzzle, a strange puzzle with ER9.2

The puzzle after basic SSTS:
Code: Select all
 *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
 | 356      4        79       | 3578     1        367      | 2        3689     35689    |
 | 2356     23568    2368     | 35       2456     9        | 145      7        13456    |
 | 2356     1        79       | 3578     24567    23467    | 4589     34689    345689   |
 |----------------------------+----------------------------+----------------------------|
 | 125      2579     12       | 4        3        157      | 6        1289     12789    |
 | 8        2367     12346    | 179      679      167      | 147      5        12347    |
 | 13456    35679    1346     | 2        8        1567     | 1479     1349     13479    |
 |----------------------------+----------------------------+----------------------------|
 | 7        236      5        | 139      249      8        | 149      12469    12469    |
 | 124      28       1248     | 6        24579    1247     | 3        12489    1245789  |
 | 9        2368     123468   | 1357     2457     12347    | 14578    12468    1245678  |
 *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Look at (14579)r257c7 => to avoid empty cell then => (5)r2c7=(7)r5c7=(9)r7c7

01: Present as Diagram: => r2c4<>5, some singles


Code: Select all
DP(14579)r257c7
 ||
(5)r2c7*
 ||
(7)r5c7------------------------------------------(7=2368)r5789c2-(2368=5)r2c2*
 ||                                             |                                                                     
(9)r7c7-r7c45=(9-57)r8c59=(7)r8c6-r456c6=r5c45--

02: (7=26)r59c2-(268=5)r28c2-(5=14)r27c7-(14=7)r5c7 => r5c456<>7, stte

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