The New Sudoku Players' Forum

[SpAce]

What is the highest SE-rating of known 17-clue puzzles? Could someone please post that puzzle as well? Also, what is the range of givens in known 11.9 minimal puzzles? Average? I'm sure the answers are hiding in plain sight somewhere on these pages but I can't find them. Thanks in advance!

[m_b_metcalf]

Slightly off topic, but this table shows the maximum for each clue count in the Patterns Game:

Code: Select all

  #   ER   EP   ED
clues
 19   9.3  9.3  3.4
 20  11.8 11.8  3.4
 21  11.3 11.3  3.4
 22  11.7  1.2  1.2
 23  11.4 11.4 10.8
 24  11.3 11.3 10.6
 25  11.3/11.3/11.1
 26  11.1 11.1 10.4
 27  10.7 10.7  8.9
 28  10.5 10.5  9.2
 29   9.5  1.2  1.2

[champagne]

here the highest ratings using skfr

98.7.......6...54..........8.........7..5.........4.6..3.2....7..4..6..9.........;9.0;1.5;1.5
98.7.....6.....5........4...35.2.......9...8...........2..45........3..........76;9.0;1.2;1.2
98.7.....6.....5........4...35.2.......8...9...........2..45........3..........76;9.0;1.2;1.2
98.7..6.....54..7..........6........3....9.......2...4..4.....2...3..........18..;8.9;1.5;1.5
98.7..6.....54..7..........6.........3...9.......2...4..4.....2...3..........18..;8.9;1.5;1.5
98.7..6..5...9...........4...6........3.....2...15...9..4..6.........3.5.........;8.9;1.2;1.2
98.7..6.....54..7..........8........3....9.......2...4..4.....2...3..........18..;8.9;1.2;1.2
98.7.....7.....6........54.3.......9..4.6........25.....6...2.....3..........8...;8.8;1.2;1.2
98.7.....6.....5.....4.......7.3........8.9.........8...4....75....9.........2..3;8.8;1.2;1.2
98.7.....6............5.4....4...38....9.........21.....2.3.........4..........96;8.8;1.2;1.2

[champagne]

and for the known 11.9 (9) the clue count is

21 1
22 5
23 3

this is in the published data base of potential hardest

[m_b_metcalf]

here the highest ratings using skfr

98.7.......6...54..........8.........7..5.........4.6..3.2....7..4..6..9.........;9.0;1.5;1.5

The first one, renumbered, with serate:

Code: Select all

 1 2 . 7 . . . . .
 . . 3 . . . 5 4 .
 . . . . . . . . .
 2 . . . . . . . .
 . 7 . . 5 . . . .
 . . . . . 4 . 3 .
 . 6 . 8 . . . . 7
 . . 4 . . 3 . . 1
 . . . . . . . . .   ED=9.1/1.5/1.5

[pjb]

No 7 of the "Top95" is:

6.2.5.........3.4..........43...8....1....2........7..5..27...........81...6..... ED=9.0/1.2/1.2

Phil

[SpAce]

Thanks a lot, guys! I appreciate it.

There are only nine known 11.9s? I didn't know that.

[999_Springs]

No 7 of the "Top95" is:

6.2.5.........3.4..........43...8....1....2........7..5..27...........81...6..... ED=9.0/1.2/1.2

Phil

can i point out that this is one of my favourite puzzles because there is a deliciously lovely one step solution despite being the hardest 17. Not mine, i think either ttt or daj<numbers> guy found it but am not completely sure. I'm on mobile so am too lazy to find out where it came from

Code: Select all

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 |  6       4789    2       |  14789   5       479     |  1389    179     39      |
 |  1789    5789    15789   |  1789    169     3       |  1689    4       2       |
 |  13789   4789    13489   |  14789   1469    2       |  1689    15679   569     |
 |--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
 |  4       3       5679    |  1579    2       8       |  169     1569    569     |
 |  789     1       56789   |  34579   349     45679   |  2       3569    48      |
 |  289     25689   5689    |  13459   1349    4569    |  7       13569   48      |
 |--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
 |  5       4689    134689  |  2       7       149     |  3469    69      369     |
 |  279     24679   4679    |  3459    349     459     |  4569    8       1       |
 |  139     49      1349    |  6       8       1459    |  3459    2       7       |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Als 46789 r1379c2

7r1c2 -7-r1c6
||
7r3c2 -7-r3c8=7=r1c8-7-r1c6
||
6r7c2 -6-r7c789=6=r8c7-6-als 13689 r1c79r23c7 -19-r1c8-7-r1c6

r1c6 isn't 7

singles and pairs to end. May be typos as i'm on mobile wasting time in a cheap hotel in barcelona

EDIT: SOMEONE STOLE MY BAG WHILE I WAS TYPINF THIS MESSAGE QHAT DO INDO HELPP ME THIS IS THE WORST DAY OF MY LIFE I HATE EVRTYBTING

Edit: it had my passport and gopro in it

Edit: I know I'm so desperate I'm asking for emotional support in a damn sudoku forum but I need it

[m_b_metcalf]

EDIT: SOMEONE STOLE MY BAG WHILE I WAS TYPINF THIS MESSAGE QHAT DO INDO HELPP ME THIS IS THE WORST DAY OF MY LIFE I HATE EVRTYBTING

Edit: it had my passport and gopro in it

Stealing a passport is a serious offence. You need to check all the waste bins in your vicinity to see whether the (empty) bag has been disposed of. Then, you absolutely must report the loss to the police. That is essential in order to be able to obtain a temporay travel document.

HTH

M

[eleven]

Edit: I know I'm so desperate I'm asking for emotional support in a damn sudoku forum but I need it

Don't panic. In many cases "useless" things like your passport are thrown away and found somewhere.
Yes, you must be very careful in Barca. Some of my friends can tell storys. One is, that money was stolen out of the trouser pockets, when sitting in the subway (!).

[eleven]

I don't know now, which of the 3 that puzzle is, it was rated hardest with SE 9.1, if i remember right.
Steve K had solved it without pencilmarks (!), but the original thread was lost with the forum crash. See here:
An alternative way to solve the hard 17 clue

[SpAce]

Edit: I know I'm so desperate I'm asking for emotional support in a damn sudoku forum but I need it

I feel party responsible because you were kindly answering my post Hope everything works out.

[SpAce]

I don't know now, which of the 3 that puzzle is, it was rated hardest with SE 9.1, if i remember right.
Steve K had solved it without pencilmarks (!), but the original thread was lost with the forum crash. See here:
An alternative way to solve the hard 17 clue

That's work of two geniuses, I'd say. Simply awesome. I had to dumb it down for myself by using candidates, which made it almost too easy. After working it out with your puzzle, I also tried it with the puzzle m_b_metcalf posted above:

12.7.......3...54..........2.........7..5.........4.3..6.8....7..4..3..1.........

Is it actually the same as yours in a morphed form, because it solved exactly the same way? Here's how I did it after learning your method (I'd tried it conventionally at first but got tired after a few ugly net moves):

After the basics and a Swordfish(5) + Skyscraper(5) we're here:

Code: Select all

.-----------------.-----------------.----------------.
| 1     2    5    | 7     4     689 | 689  68   3    |
| 7     89   3    | 269   2689  1   | 5    4    2689 |
| 689   4    689  | 5     3     289 | 1    7    289  |
:-----------------+-----------------+----------------:
| 2     3    1689 | 169   689   7   | 689  5    4    |
| 4     7    689  | 3     5     689 | 2    1    689  |
| 5689  589  1689 | 1269  2689  4   | 7    3    689  |
:-----------------+-----------------+----------------:
| 3     6    2    | 8     1     5   | 4    9    7    |
| 589   589  4    | 269   7     3   | 68   268  1    |
| 89    1    7    | 4     269   269 | 3    268  5    |
'-----------------'-----------------'----------------'

Then I assigned variables {abc} to the group {689}, and replaced all occurrences of those in the pencil marks. The obvious but important part is to replace even one or two of those digits with all three variables (because we don't know which is which yet). (Btw, I didn't want to use "xyz" because "z" looks a bit like a 2.)

{689} -> {abc}

Code: Select all

.------------------.-------------------.-----------------.
| 1     2     5    | 7      4     abc  | abc  abc   3    |
| 7     abc   3    | 2abc   2abc  1    | 5    4     2abc |
| abc   4     abc  | 5      3     2abc | 1    7     2abc |
:------------------+-------------------+-----------------:
| 2     3     1abc | 1abc   abc   7    | abc  5     4    |
| 4     7     abc  | 3      5     abc  | 2    1     abc  |
| 5abc  5abc  1abc | 12abc  2abc  4    | 7    3     abc  |
:------------------+-------------------+-----------------:
| 3    (6)    2    |(8)     1     5    | 4   (9)    7    |
| 5abc  5abc  4    | 2abc   7     3    | abc  2abc  1    |
| abc   1     7    | 4      2abc  2abc | 3    2abc  5    |
'------------------'-------------------'-----------------'

Then I used box 6 to plant our seeds (i.e. to place a, b, c):

Code: Select all

.------------------.-------------------.-----------------.
| 1     2     5    | 7      4     abc  | abc  abc   3    |
| 7     abc   3    | 2abc   2abc  1    | 5    4     2abc |
| abc   4     abc  | 5      3     2abc | 1    7     2abc |
:------------------+-------------------+-----------------:
| 2     3     1abc | 1abc   abc   7    |(a)   5     4    |
| 4     7     abc  | 3      5     abc  | 2    1    (b)   |
| 5abc  5abc  1abc | 12abc  2abc  4    | 7    3    (c)   |
:------------------+-------------------+-----------------:
| 3    (6)    2    |(8)     1     5    | 4   (9)    7    |
| 5abc  5abc  4    | 2abc   7     3    | abc  2abc  1    |
| abc   1     7    | 4      2abc  2abc | 3    2abc  5    |
'------------------'-------------------'-----------------'

Elementary eliminations:

Code: Select all

.------------------.-------------------.-----------------.
| 1     2     5    | 7      4     abc  | bc   abc   3    |
| 7     abc   3    | 2abc   2abc  1    | 5    4     2a   |
| abc   4     abc  | 5      3     2abc | 1    7     2a   |
:------------------+-------------------+-----------------:
| 2     3     1bc  | 1bc    bc    7    |(a)   5     4    |
| 4     7     ac   | 3      5     ac   | 2    1    (b)   |
| 5ab   5ab   1ab  | 12ab   2ab   4    | 7    3    (c)   |
:------------------+-------------------+-----------------:
| 3    (6)    2    |(8)     1     5    | 4   (9)    7    |
| 5abc  5abc  4    | 2abc   7     3    | bc   2abc  1    |
| abc   1     7    | 4      2abc  2abc | 3    2abc  5    |
'------------------'-------------------'-----------------'

Claiming (a) in box 3: -a r1c8 -> (a)r1c6

Code: Select all

.------------------.-------------------.-----------------.
| 1     2     5    | 7      4    *a    | bc   bc    3    |
| 7     abc   3    | 2abc   2abc  1    | 5    4     2a   |
| abc   4     abc  | 5      3     2abc | 1    7     2a   |
:------------------+-------------------+-----------------:
| 2     3     1bc  | 1bc    bc    7    |(a)   5     4    |
| 4     7     ac   | 3      5     ac   | 2    1    (b)   |
| 5ab   5ab   1ab  | 12ab   2ab   4    | 7    3    (c)   |
:------------------+-------------------+-----------------:
| 3    (6)    2    |(8)     1     5    | 4   (9)    7    |
| 5abc  5abc  4    | 2abc   7     3    | bc   2abc  1    |
| abc   1     7    | 4      2abc  2abc | 3    2abc  5    |
'------------------'-------------------'-----------------'

stte:

Code: Select all

.------------------.-------------------.-----------------.
| 1     2     5    | 7      4    *a    |*c   *b     3    |
| 7    *a     3    |*b     *c     1    | 5    4    ^2    |
|*c     4    *b    | 5      3    ^2    | 1    7    *a    |
:------------------+-------------------+-----------------:
| 2     3    *c    |^1     *b     7    |(a)   5     4    |
| 4     7    *a    | 3      5    *c    | 2    1    (b)   |
|*b    ^5    ^1    |^2     *a     4    | 7    3    (c)   |
:------------------+-------------------+-----------------:
| 3    (6)    2    |(8)     1     5    | 4   (9)    7    |
|^5    *c     4    |*a      7     3    |*b   ^2     1    |
|*a     1     7    | 4     ^2    *b    | 3   *c     5    |
'------------------'-------------------'-----------------'

b|c <> 9 -> a=9
a|c <> 6 -> b=6
a|b <> 8 -> c=8

We're done. Have I misunderstood something or is it really that easy??? No even need to use the UR(s) with either puzzle (but it works too).

[999_Springs]

as a natural extension to this thread, does anyone know what is the highest rating of known 18 and 19 clue puzzles?

this thread combined with my beloved "maximum clues per se rating" thread made me wonder what is the highest rating of any N-clue puzzle and as far as i know it looks something like this

hardest puzzle for N clues:
17 - 9.1 in this thread
18-19 - ??? i have no idea
20 - mike's 11.8
21-23 - all the 11.9's
24-26 - whatever champagne's database has in it (11.7 or 11.8?)
27-? - champagne's database puzzles after singles are filled in
?-37 - mauricio's symmetric 11.2
38-41 - my 10.6
42 - my 10.5
43-49 - dobrichev's 10.4
50-51 - 10.1
52 - 9.2
53 - 9.1
54-55 - 8.9
56-58 - 8.3
59 - 7.7
60-61 - 7.6
62-65 - 7.2
66-69 - 6.6
70 - 5.6
71-77 - 1.2
78-80 - 1.0

with the lower ratings obviously subject to change

i still miss my passport no sign of it anywhere

[eleven]

Can't answer your question, 18/19 clues were out of interest, when searching for hard puzzles. I would give it a try, if i had kept my (small) collections. Sorry.
But i will keep on looking for a passport with owner 999_Springs.