Highest rated 17-clue puzzle?

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Highest rated 17-clue puzzle?

Postby SpAce » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:06 am

What is the highest SE-rating of known 17-clue puzzles? Could someone please post that puzzle as well? Also, what is the range of givens in known 11.9 minimal puzzles? Average? I'm sure the answers are hiding in plain sight somewhere on these pages but I can't find them. Thanks in advance!
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   *             |    |               |    |    *
        *        |=()=|    /  _  \    |=()=|               *
            *    |    |   |-=( )=-|   |    |      *
     *                     \  ¯  /                   *   
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Re: Highest rated 17-clue puzzle?

Postby m_b_metcalf » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:27 am

Slightly off topic, but this table shows the maximum for each clue count in the Patterns Game:

Code: Select all
  #   ER   EP   ED
clues
 19   9.3  9.3  3.4
 20  11.8 11.8  3.4
 21  11.3 11.3  3.4
 22  11.7  1.2  1.2
 23  11.4 11.4 10.8
 24  11.3 11.3 10.6
 25  11.3/11.3/11.1
 26  11.1 11.1 10.4
 27  10.7 10.7  8.9
 28  10.5 10.5  9.2
 29   9.5  1.2  1.2
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Re: Highest rated 17-clue puzzle?

Postby champagne » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:49 am

here the highest ratings using skfr

98.7.......6...54..........8.........7..5.........4.6..3.2....7..4..6..9.........;9.0;1.5;1.5
98.7.....6.....5........4...35.2.......9...8...........2..45........3..........76;9.0;1.2;1.2
98.7.....6.....5........4...35.2.......8...9...........2..45........3..........76;9.0;1.2;1.2
98.7..6.....54..7..........6........3....9.......2...4..4.....2...3..........18..;8.9;1.5;1.5
98.7..6.....54..7..........6.........3...9.......2...4..4.....2...3..........18..;8.9;1.5;1.5
98.7..6..5...9...........4...6........3.....2...15...9..4..6.........3.5.........;8.9;1.2;1.2
98.7..6.....54..7..........8........3....9.......2...4..4.....2...3..........18..;8.9;1.2;1.2
98.7.....7.....6........54.3.......9..4.6........25.....6...2.....3..........8...;8.8;1.2;1.2
98.7.....6.....5.....4.......7.3........8.9.........8...4....75....9.........2..3;8.8;1.2;1.2
98.7.....6............5.4....4...38....9.........21.....2.3.........4..........96;8.8;1.2;1.2
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Re: Highest rated 17-clue puzzle?

Postby champagne » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:56 am

and for the known 11.9 (9) the clue count is

21 1
22 5
23 3

this is in the published data base of potential hardest
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Re: Highest rated 17-clue puzzle?

Postby m_b_metcalf » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:12 am

champagne wrote:here the highest ratings using skfr

98.7.......6...54..........8.........7..5.........4.6..3.2....7..4..6..9.........;9.0;1.5;1.5

The first one, renumbered, with serate:
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 1 2 . 7 . . . . .
 . . 3 . . . 5 4 .
 . . . . . . . . .
 2 . . . . . . . .
 . 7 . . 5 . . . .
 . . . . . 4 . 3 .
 . 6 . 8 . . . . 7
 . . 4 . . 3 . . 1
 . . . . . . . . .   ED=9.1/1.5/1.5
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Re: Highest rated 17-clue puzzle?

Postby pjb » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:52 am

No 7 of the "Top95" is:

6.2.5.........3.4..........43...8....1....2........7..5..27...........81...6..... ED=9.0/1.2/1.2

Phil
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Re: Highest rated 17-clue puzzle?

Postby SpAce » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:02 am

Thanks a lot, guys! I appreciate it.

There are only nine known 11.9s? I didn't know that.
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        *        |=()=|    /  _  \    |=()=|               *
            *    |    |   |-=( )=-|   |    |      *
     *                     \  ¯  /                   *   
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Re: Highest rated 17-clue puzzle?

Postby 999_Springs » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:10 pm

pjb wrote:No 7 of the "Top95" is:

6.2.5.........3.4..........43...8....1....2........7..5..27...........81...6..... ED=9.0/1.2/1.2

Phil


can i point out that this is one of my favourite puzzles because there is a deliciously lovely one step solution despite being the hardest 17. Not mine, i think either ttt or daj<numbers> guy found it but am not completely sure. I'm on mobile so am too lazy to find out where it came from

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+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 |  6       4789    2       |  14789   5       479     |  1389    179     39      |
 |  1789    5789    15789   |  1789    169     3       |  1689    4       2       |
 |  13789   4789    13489   |  14789   1469    2       |  1689    15679   569     |
 |--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
 |  4       3       5679    |  1579    2       8       |  169     1569    569     |
 |  789     1       56789   |  34579   349     45679   |  2       3569    48      |
 |  289     25689   5689    |  13459   1349    4569    |  7       13569   48      |
 |--------------------------+--------------------------+--------------------------|
 |  5       4689    134689  |  2       7       149     |  3469    69      369     |
 |  279     24679   4679    |  3459    349     459     |  4569    8       1       |
 |  139     49      1349    |  6       8       1459    |  3459    2       7       |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Als 46789 r1379c2

7r1c2 -7-r1c6
||
7r3c2 -7-r3c8=7=r1c8-7-r1c6
||
6r7c2 -6-r7c789=6=r8c7-6-als 13689 r1c79r23c7 -19-r1c8-7-r1c6

r1c6 isn't 7


singles and pairs to end. May be typos as i'm on mobile wasting time in a cheap hotel in barcelona

EDIT: SOMEONE STOLE MY BAG WHILE I WAS TYPINF THIS MESSAGE QHAT DO INDO HELPP ME THIS IS THE WORST DAY OF MY LIFE I HATE EVRTYBTING

Edit: it had my passport and gopro in it

Edit: I know I'm so desperate I'm asking for emotional support in a damn sudoku forum but I need it :(
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Re: Highest rated 17-clue puzzle?

Postby m_b_metcalf » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:58 pm

999_Springs wrote:EDIT: SOMEONE STOLE MY BAG WHILE I WAS TYPINF THIS MESSAGE QHAT DO INDO HELPP ME THIS IS THE WORST DAY OF MY LIFE I HATE EVRTYBTING

Edit: it had my passport and gopro in it

Stealing a passport is a serious offence. You need to check all the waste bins in your vicinity to see whether the (empty) bag has been disposed of. Then, you absolutely must report the loss to the police. That is essential in order to be able to obtain a temporay travel document.

HTH

M
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Re: Highest rated 17-clue puzzle?

Postby eleven » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:15 pm

999_Springs wrote:Edit: I know I'm so desperate I'm asking for emotional support in a damn sudoku forum but I need it :(

Don't panic. In many cases "useless" things like your passport are thrown away and found somewhere.
Yes, you must be very careful in Barca. Some of my friends can tell storys. One is, that money was stolen out of the trouser pockets, when sitting in the subway (!).
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Re: Highest rated 17-clue puzzle?

Postby eleven » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:03 pm

I don't know now, which of the 3 that puzzle is, it was rated hardest with SE 9.1, if i remember right.
Steve K had solved it without pencilmarks (!), but the original thread was lost with the forum crash. See here:
An alternative way to solve the hard 17 clue
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Re: Highest rated 17-clue puzzle?

Postby SpAce » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:17 pm

999_Springs wrote:Edit: I know I'm so desperate I'm asking for emotional support in a damn sudoku forum but I need it :(

I feel party responsible because you were kindly answering my post :( Hope everything works out.
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        *        |=()=|    /  _  \    |=()=|               *
            *    |    |   |-=( )=-|   |    |      *
     *                     \  ¯  /                   *   
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Re: Highest rated 17-clue puzzle?

Postby SpAce » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:23 am

eleven wrote:I don't know now, which of the 3 that puzzle is, it was rated hardest with SE 9.1, if i remember right.
Steve K had solved it without pencilmarks (!), but the original thread was lost with the forum crash. See here:
An alternative way to solve the hard 17 clue

That's work of two geniuses, I'd say. Simply awesome. I had to dumb it down for myself by using candidates, which made it almost too easy. After working it out with your puzzle, I also tried it with the puzzle m_b_metcalf posted above:

12.7.......3...54..........2.........7..5.........4.3..6.8....7..4..3..1.........

Is it actually the same as yours in a morphed form, because it solved exactly the same way? Here's how I did it after learning your method (I'd tried it conventionally at first but got tired after a few ugly net moves):

After the basics and a Swordfish(5) + Skyscraper(5) we're here:

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.-----------------.-----------------.----------------.
| 1     2    5    | 7     4     689 | 689  68   3    |
| 7     89   3    | 269   2689  1   | 5    4    2689 |
| 689   4    689  | 5     3     289 | 1    7    289  |
:-----------------+-----------------+----------------:
| 2     3    1689 | 169   689   7   | 689  5    4    |
| 4     7    689  | 3     5     689 | 2    1    689  |
| 5689  589  1689 | 1269  2689  4   | 7    3    689  |
:-----------------+-----------------+----------------:
| 3     6    2    | 8     1     5   | 4    9    7    |
| 589   589  4    | 269   7     3   | 68   268  1    |
| 89    1    7    | 4     269   269 | 3    268  5    |
'-----------------'-----------------'----------------'

Then I assigned variables {abc} to the group {689}, and replaced all occurrences of those in the pencil marks. The obvious but important part is to replace even one or two of those digits with all three variables (because we don't know which is which yet). (Btw, I didn't want to use "xyz" because "z" looks a bit like a 2.)

{689} -> {abc}

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.------------------.-------------------.-----------------.
| 1     2     5    | 7      4     abc  | abc  abc   3    |
| 7     abc   3    | 2abc   2abc  1    | 5    4     2abc |
| abc   4     abc  | 5      3     2abc | 1    7     2abc |
:------------------+-------------------+-----------------:
| 2     3     1abc | 1abc   abc   7    | abc  5     4    |
| 4     7     abc  | 3      5     abc  | 2    1     abc  |
| 5abc  5abc  1abc | 12abc  2abc  4    | 7    3     abc  |
:------------------+-------------------+-----------------:
| 3    (6)    2    |(8)     1     5    | 4   (9)    7    |
| 5abc  5abc  4    | 2abc   7     3    | abc  2abc  1    |
| abc   1     7    | 4      2abc  2abc | 3    2abc  5    |
'------------------'-------------------'-----------------'

Then I used box 6 to plant our seeds (i.e. to place a, b, c):

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.------------------.-------------------.-----------------.
| 1     2     5    | 7      4     abc  | abc  abc   3    |
| 7     abc   3    | 2abc   2abc  1    | 5    4     2abc |
| abc   4     abc  | 5      3     2abc | 1    7     2abc |
:------------------+-------------------+-----------------:
| 2     3     1abc | 1abc   abc   7    |(a)   5     4    |
| 4     7     abc  | 3      5     abc  | 2    1    (b)   |
| 5abc  5abc  1abc | 12abc  2abc  4    | 7    3    (c)   |
:------------------+-------------------+-----------------:
| 3    (6)    2    |(8)     1     5    | 4   (9)    7    |
| 5abc  5abc  4    | 2abc   7     3    | abc  2abc  1    |
| abc   1     7    | 4      2abc  2abc | 3    2abc  5    |
'------------------'-------------------'-----------------'

Elementary eliminations:

Code: Select all
.------------------.-------------------.-----------------.
| 1     2     5    | 7      4     abc  | bc   abc   3    |
| 7     abc   3    | 2abc   2abc  1    | 5    4     2a   |
| abc   4     abc  | 5      3     2abc | 1    7     2a   |
:------------------+-------------------+-----------------:
| 2     3     1bc  | 1bc    bc    7    |(a)   5     4    |
| 4     7     ac   | 3      5     ac   | 2    1    (b)   |
| 5ab   5ab   1ab  | 12ab   2ab   4    | 7    3    (c)   |
:------------------+-------------------+-----------------:
| 3    (6)    2    |(8)     1     5    | 4   (9)    7    |
| 5abc  5abc  4    | 2abc   7     3    | bc   2abc  1    |
| abc   1     7    | 4      2abc  2abc | 3    2abc  5    |
'------------------'-------------------'-----------------'

Claiming (a) in box 3: -a r1c8 -> (a)r1c6

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.------------------.-------------------.-----------------.
| 1     2     5    | 7      4    *a    | bc   bc    3    |
| 7     abc   3    | 2abc   2abc  1    | 5    4     2a   |
| abc   4     abc  | 5      3     2abc | 1    7     2a   |
:------------------+-------------------+-----------------:
| 2     3     1bc  | 1bc    bc    7    |(a)   5     4    |
| 4     7     ac   | 3      5     ac   | 2    1    (b)   |
| 5ab   5ab   1ab  | 12ab   2ab   4    | 7    3    (c)   |
:------------------+-------------------+-----------------:
| 3    (6)    2    |(8)     1     5    | 4   (9)    7    |
| 5abc  5abc  4    | 2abc   7     3    | bc   2abc  1    |
| abc   1     7    | 4      2abc  2abc | 3    2abc  5    |
'------------------'-------------------'-----------------'

stte:

Code: Select all
.------------------.-------------------.-----------------.
| 1     2     5    | 7      4    *a    |*c   *b     3    |
| 7    *a     3    |*b     *c     1    | 5    4    ^2    |
|*c     4    *b    | 5      3    ^2    | 1    7    *a    |
:------------------+-------------------+-----------------:
| 2     3    *c    |^1     *b     7    |(a)   5     4    |
| 4     7    *a    | 3      5    *c    | 2    1    (b)   |
|*b    ^5    ^1    |^2     *a     4    | 7    3    (c)   |
:------------------+-------------------+-----------------:
| 3    (6)    2    |(8)     1     5    | 4   (9)    7    |
|^5    *c     4    |*a      7     3    |*b   ^2     1    |
|*a     1     7    | 4     ^2    *b    | 3   *c     5    |
'------------------'-------------------'-----------------'

b|c <> 9 -> a=9
a|c <> 6 -> b=6
a|b <> 8 -> c=8

We're done. Have I misunderstood something or is it really that easy??? No even need to use the UR(s) with either puzzle (but it works too).
Code: Select all
   *             |    |               |    |    *
        *        |=()=|    /  _  \    |=()=|               *
            *    |    |   |-=( )=-|   |    |      *
     *                     \  ¯  /                   *   
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