Dan's Docile Ditty December 16, 2013

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Dan's Docile Ditty December 16, 2013

Postby ArkieTech » Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:22 am

Code: Select all
 *-----------*
 |.3.|64.|.1.|
 |86.|...|4..|
 |...|.5.|.7.|
 |---+---+---|
 |..3|4..|..1|
 |.21|...|95.|
 |9..|..1|7..|
 |---+---+---|
 |.4.|.8.|...|
 |..8|...|.39|
 |.1.|.23|.8.|
 *-----------*


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Re: Dan's Docile Ditty December 16, 2013

Postby pjb » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:30 am

Code: Select all
 257    3      257    | 6      4      9      | 28     1      258   
 8      6      25     | 3      1      7      | 4      9      25     
 1      9      4      | 28     5      28     | 3      7      6     
 ---------------------+----------------------+---------------------
a57    b578    3      | 4      9      2-5    | 268    26     1     
 4      2      1      | 78     67     68     | 9      5      3     
 9      58     6      | 25     3      1      | 7      4      28     
 ---------------------+----------------------+---------------------
 3      4      259    | 159    8     e56     | 1256   26     7     
 2567  c57     8      | 157   d67     4      | 1256   3      9     
 567    1      579    | 579    2      3      | 56     8      4     

(5=7) r4c1 - r4c2 = r8c2 - (7=6) r8c5 - (6=5) r7c6 => -5 r4c6; stte

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Re: Dan's Docile Ditty December 16, 2013

Postby SteveG48 » Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:33 am

Code: Select all
.----------------.-------------.---------------.
| 257   3    257 | 6    4   9  | 28    1   258 |
| 8     6    25  | 3    1   7  | 4     9   25  |
| 1     9    4   | 28   5   28 | 3     7   6   |
:----------------+-------------+---------------:
| f57   f578 3   | 4    9   e25| 268   26  1   |
| 4     2    1   | 78   b67 c68| 9     5   3   |
| 9     g58  6   | 25   3   1  | 7     4   28  |
:----------------+-------------+---------------:
| 3     4    259 | 159  8   d56| 1256  26  7   |
| 2567  h57   8  | 157 aI67 4  | 1256  3   9   |
| 567   1    579 | 579  2   3  | 56    8   4   |
'----------------'-------------'---------------'



(6)r8c5 = r5c5 - r5c6 = (6-5)r7c6 = (5)r4c6 - r4c12 = r6c2 - (5=7)r8c2 - (7=6)r8c5 => r8c5 = 6 ; stte
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Re: Dan's Docile Ditty December 16, 2013

Postby Leren » Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:07 am

Code: Select all
*--------------------------------------------------------------*
| 257   3     257    | 6     4     9      | 28    1     258    |
| 8     6     25     | 3     1     7      | 4     9     25     |
| 1     9     4      |c28    5     28     | 3     7     6      |
|--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
| 57    578   3      | 4     9     25     | 268   26    1      |
| 4     2     1      |c78   b67    68     | 9     5     3      |
| 9     8-5   6      |c25    3     1      | 7     4     28     |
|--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
| 3     4     259    | 159   8     56     | 1256  26    7      |
| 2567 a57    8      | 17-5 a67    4      | 1256  3     9      |
| 567   1     579    | 579   2     3      | 56    8     4      |
*--------------------------------------------------------------*

ALS XY Wing: (5=6) r8c25 - (6=7) r5c5 - (7=5) r356c4 => - 5 r6c2, r8c4; stte

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Re: Dan's Docile Ditty December 16, 2013

Postby pjb » Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:12 am

Leren:

An ALS XY Wing, or an XY chain of length 6?

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Re: Dan's Docile Ditty December 16, 2013

Postby ronk » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:08 pm

Leren wrote:
Code: Select all
*--------------------------------------------------------------*
| 257   3     257    | 6     4     9      | 28    1     258    |
| 8     6     25     | 3     1     7      | 4     9     25     |
| 1     9     4      |c28    5     28     | 3     7     6      |
|--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
| 57    578   3      | 4     9     25     | 268   26    1      |
| 4     2     1      |c78   b67    68     | 9     5     3      |
| 9     8-5   6      |c25    3     1      | 7     4     28     |
|--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
| 3     4     259    | 159   8     56     | 1256  26    7      |
| 2567 a57    8      | 17-5 a67    4      | 1256  3     9      |
| 567   1     579    | 579   2     3      | 56    8     4      |
*--------------------------------------------------------------*

ALS XY Wing: (5=6) r8c25 - (6=7) r5c5 - (7=5) r356c4 => - 5 r6c2, r8c4; stte
pjb wrote:An ALS XY Wing, or an XY chain of length 6?

It's an xy-chain expressed as an als-xy-wing.
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Re: Dan's Docile Ditty December 16, 2013

Postby 7b53 » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:35 pm

ronk wrote:It's an xy-chain expressed as an als-xy-wing.

so.. guess both Leren and pjb are right. depending how the notations are written.
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Re: Dan's Docile Ditty December 16, 2013

Postby DonM » Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:29 pm

This sort of confusion is exactly why the notation has to express what is going on.

Digressing for a minute:
The typical xy-chain uses bivalue cells.

In the rather unnecessarily complicated 'old' ALS terminology, a chain of 2 ALS sets is/was called an ALS xz-rule, a chain of 3 ALS sets is/was an ALS xy-wing and a chain of 4 sets or over is/was called an ALS xy-chain. (I pushed for years that we simply call all of them an ALS chain and that started to catch on, but now we're back to 2006...)

Still, no matter which way one looks at it, If one is notating a chain as an ALS XY-Wing, even if it acts similar to an XY-chain, then you still have to notate the digits of the set. Then there won't be any confusion:
(5=67) r8c25 - (6=7) r5c5 - (7=258) r356c4 => - 5 r6c2, r8c4; stte
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Re: Dan's Docile Ditty December 16, 2013

Postby Marty R. » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:40 pm

Code: Select all
+--------------+-----------+-------------+
| 257  3   257 | 6   4  9  | 28   1  258 |
| 8    6   25  | 3   1  7  | 4    9  25  |
| 1    9   4   | 28  5  28 | 3    7  6   |
+--------------+-----------+-------------+
| 57   578 3   | 4   9  25 | 268  26 1   |
| 4    2   1   | 78  67 68 | 9    5  3   |
| 9    58  6   | 25  3  1  | 7    4  28  |
+--------------+-----------+-------------+
| 3    4   259 | 159 8  56 | 1256 26 7   |
| 2567 57  8   | 157 67 4  | 1256 3  9   |
| 567  1   579 | 579 2  3  | 56   8  4   |
+--------------+-----------+-------------+

Play this puzzle online at the Daily Sudoku site

XY-Chain

(5=7)r8c2-r8c5=r5c5-(7=8)r5c4-(8=2)r3c4-(2=5)r6c4=>r6c2<>5
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Re: Dan's Docile Ditty December 16, 2013

Postby Marty R. » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:10 pm

SteveG48 wrote:
Code: Select all
.----------------.-------------.---------------.
| 257   3    257 | 6    4   9  | 28    1   258 |
| 8     6    25  | 3    1   7  | 4     9   25  |
| 1     9    4   | 28   5   28 | 3     7   6   |
:----------------+-------------+---------------:
| f57   f578 3   | 4    9   e25| 268   26  1   |
| 4     2    1   | 78   b67 c68| 9     5   3   |
| 9     g58  6   | 25   3   1  | 7     4   28  |
:----------------+-------------+---------------:
| 3     4    259 | 159  8   d56| 1256  26  7   |
| 2567  h57   8  | 157 aI67 4  | 1256  3   9   |
| 567   1    579 | 579  2   3  | 56    8   4   |
'----------------'-------------'---------------'



(6)r8c5 = r5c5 - r5c6 = (6-5)r7c6 = (5)r4c6 - r4c12 = r6c2 - (5=7)r8c2 - (7=6)r8c5 => r8c5 = 6 ; stte


Steve,,

I'm missing something and not seeing how the last term is (7=6)r8c5. There's a 6 in r5c5 and a 7 in r8c2. Those would seem to trap r8c5, leaving it=1. Six is how r8c5 ends up, but I'm not seeing how the 1 got accounted for to allow the 7=6.

Thanks,
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Re: Dan's Docile Ditty December 16, 2013

Postby ronk » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:29 pm

Marty R. wrote:I'm missing something and not seeing how the last term is (7=6)r8c5. There's a 6 in r5c5 and a 7 in r8c2. Those would seem to trap r8c5, leaving it=1. Six is how r8c5 ends up, but I'm not seeing how the 1 got accounted for to allow the 7=6.

Perhaps it's an uppercase 'I'. Perhaps someone will expound on their personal preference not to use this letter. :-)
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Re: Dan's Docile Ditty December 16, 2013

Postby Luke » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:49 pm

DonM wrote:This sort of confusion is exactly why the notation has to express what is going on.

I thought Danny Jones already put this one to bed! ;)

:arrow: Click
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Re: Dan's Docile Ditty December 16, 2013

Postby pjb » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:12 pm

I felt that one went looking for ALSs when there wasn't a simple chain to be found which did the job. This means that at least one member of the ALS has to have more than 2 digits. If we all accept that its reasonable to use ALS notation as a way to abbreviate XY chains, then so be it.

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Re: Dan's Docile Ditty December 16, 2013

Postby DonM » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:39 pm

Luke wrote:
DonM wrote:This sort of confusion is exactly why the notation has to express what is going on.

I thought Danny Jones already put this one to bed! ;)

:arrow: Click


Yeah, I remember that thread now and my post was a shorter version of the one above. I remember not being sure whether Daj was serious or not- there was no smiley... From that thread, it appears that Leren came up with that notation on his own.

Hmm, does anyone know if Hodoku spits that out?
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Re: Dan's Docile Ditty December 16, 2013

Postby daj95376 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:14 pm

DonM wrote:
Luke wrote:
DonM wrote:This sort of confusion is exactly why the notation has to express what is going on.

I thought Danny Jones already put this one to bed! ;)


Yeah, I remember that thread now and my post was a shorter version of the one above. I remember not being sure whether Daj was serious or not- there was no smiley... From that thread, it appears that Leren came up with that notation on his own.

Hmm, does anyone know if Hodoku spits that out?

I should have included a "smiley" in the referenced post -- maybe! The bastardization of the Eureka notation has become rampant. We need a way to condense "boring segments" without calling them ALS. However, I have no respect for bastardizing a reasonable solution so it can be called an "ALS XY-Wing".

HoDoKu uses Nice Loop notation and, any more, I have to reference my notes in order to recall how NL notation works.
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