August 5, 2015

Post puzzles for others to solve here.

August 5, 2015

Postby ArkieTech » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:18 pm

Code: Select all
 *-----------*
 |.9.|1.7|...|
 |...|..2|.8.|
 |...|...|9..|
 |---+---+---|
 |3..|.7.|...|
 |.5.|..8|..4|
 |.46|.59|...|
 |---+---+---|
 |71.|2..|..9|
 |..3|.4.|..7|
 |...|...|2.6|
 *-----------*


Play/Print this puzzle online
dan
User avatar
ArkieTech
 
Posts: 2865
Joined: 29 May 2006
Location: NW Arkansas USA

Re: August 5, 2015

Postby SteveG48 » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:37 pm

Code: Select all
 *------------------------------------------------------------*
 | a4568  9     2458  | 1     36    7     | 456   2456  235   |
 |ac46    37    1-4   | 5     9     2     |c1467  8     13    |
 | a56    37    125   | 8     36    4     | 9     2567  1235  |
 *--------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 |  3     2     89    | 4     7     1     | 56    569   58    |
 | a19    5     7     | 6     2     8     |b13   b39    4     |
 | a18    4     6     | 3     5     9     |b17    27    128   |
 *--------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 |  7     1     45    | 2     8     6     | 345   345   9     |
 |  2     6     3     | 9     4     5     | 8     1     7     |
 |  459   8     459   | 7     1     3     | 2     45    6     |
 *------------------------------------------------------------*


(4=15689)r12356c1 - (9=317)b6p457 - (17=46)r2c17 => -4 r2c3 ; stte
Steve
User avatar
SteveG48
2018 Supporter
 
Posts: 2261
Joined: 08 November 2013
Location: Orlando, Florida

Re: August 5, 2015

Postby Leren » Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:11 am

Code: Select all
*--------------------------------------------------------------*
| 4568  9     2458   | 1     36    7      | 456   2456  235    |
| 46   a37   a14     | 5     9     2      | 46-17 8    a13     |
| 56    37    125    | 8     36    4      | 9     2567  1235   |
|--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
| 3     2    b89     | 4     7     1      |c56   c569  c58     |
| 19    5     7      | 6     2     8      |c13   c39    4      |
| 18    4     6      | 3     5     9      |c17    27    128    |
|--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
| 7     1    b45     | 2     8     6      | 345   345   9      |
| 2     6     3      | 9     4     5      | 8     1     7      |
| 459   8    b459    | 7     1     3      | 2     45    6      |
*--------------------------------------------------------------*

2 Pincer ALS XY Wing: (17=4) r2c239 - (4=8) r479c3 - (8=17) r4c789, r5c78, r6c7 => - 17 r3c7; stte

Leren
Leren
 
Posts: 3284
Joined: 03 June 2012

Re: August 5, 2015

Postby JC Van Hay » Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:19 am

Code: Select all
+-----------------+----------+--------------------+
| 4568  9   2458  | 1  36  7 | 456     2456  235  |
| (46)  37  1(4)  | 5  9   2 | (1467)  8     13   |
| 56    37  125   | 8  36  4 | 9       2567  1235 |
+-----------------+----------+--------------------+
| 3     2   8-9   | 4  7   1 | 56      569   58   |
| (19)  5   7     | 6  2   8 | 3(1)    39    4    |
| 18    4   6     | 3  5   9 | (17)    27    128  |
+-----------------+----------+--------------------+
| 7     1   (45)  | 2  8   6 | 345     345   9    |
| 2     6   3     | 9  4   5 | 8       1     7    |
| 45-9  8   (459) | 7  1   3 | 2       45    6    |
+-----------------+----------+--------------------+
[(9=1)r5c1 - 1r5c7=HP(17-46)r26c7=HP(46)r2c13 - (4=59)r79c3] - 9r4c3,r9c1; ste
JC Van Hay
 
Posts: 719
Joined: 22 May 2010

Re: August 5, 2015

Postby pjb » Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:28 am

Code: Select all
 4568    9       2458   | 1      36     7      | 456    2456   235   
 46      37      14     | 5      9      2      | 1467   8      13     
 56      37      125    | 8      36     4      | 9      2567   1235   
------------------------+----------------------+---------------------
 3       2       89     | 4      7      1      | 56     569    58     
 19      5       7      | 6      2      8      | 13     39     4     
 1-8     4       6      | 3      5      9      | 17     27     128   
------------------------+----------------------+---------------------
 7       1       45     | 2      8      6      | 345    345    9     
 2       6       3      | 9      4      5      | 8      1      7     
 459     8       459    | 7      1      3      | 2      45     6     

(1-2)r3c3 = (2-8)r1c3 = r1c1 - r6c1
(1)r3c9 - (1=3)r2c9 - (3=7)r2c2 - r2c7 = (7-1)r6c7 = (1-8)r6c1 => -8 r6c1; stte
     \
    r6c9


Phil
pjb
2014 Supporter
 
Posts: 1958
Joined: 11 September 2011
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: August 5, 2015

Postby JC Van Hay » Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:00 am

pjb wrote:(1-2)r3c3 = (2-8)r1c3 = r1c1 - r6c1
(1)r3c9 - (1=3)r2c9 - (3=7)r2c2 - r2c7 = (7-1)r6c7 = (1-8)r6c1 => -8 r6c1; stte
\
r6c9
Or ...
Code: Select all
+----------------------+----------+----------------------+
| 456(8)  9     45(28) | 1  36  7 | 456     2456  235    |
| 46      (37)  14     | 5  9   2 | 146(7)  8     (13)   |
| 56      37    5(12)  | 8  36  4 | 9       2567  235(1) |
+----------------------+----------+----------------------+
| 3       2     89     | 4  7   1 | 56      569   58     |
| 19      5     7      | 6  2   8 | 13      39    4      |
| (18)    4     6      | 3  5   9 | -1(7)   27    28-1   |
+----------------------+----------+----------------------+
| 7       1     45     | 2  8   6 | 345     345   9      |
| 2       6     3      | 9  4   5 | 8       1     7      |
| 459     8     459    | 7  1   3 | 2       45    6      |
+----------------------+----------+----------------------+
[(1=8)r6c1 - 8r1c1=(8-2)r1c3=(2-1)r3c3=1r3c9 - ... - (1=3)r2c9 - (3=7)r2c2 - 7r2c7=7r6c7] - 1r6c97=1r6c1; ste
JC Van Hay
 
Posts: 719
Joined: 22 May 2010

Re: August 5, 2015

Postby blue » Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:35 am

Code: Select all
+---------------------+----------+----------------------+
| 4568  9     2458    | 1  36  7 | (456)   2456    235  |
| 46    (37)  (14)    | 5  9   2 | (1467)  8       (13) |
| 56    37    125     | 8  36  4 | 9       2567    1235 |
+---------------------+----------+----------------------+
| 3     2     89      | 4  7   1 | (56)    569     58   |
| 19    5     7       | 6  2   8 | 13      39      4    |
| 18    4     6       | 3  5   9 | 17      27      128  |
+---------------------+----------+----------------------+
| 7     1     (45)*   | 2  8   6 | (345)   (3)45*  9    |
| 2     6     3       | 9  4   5 | 8       1       7    |
| 459   8     (9)-45* | 7  1   3 | 2       45*     6    |
+---------------------+----------+----------------------+

using UR <45>r79c38:

45r27c3 = 137r2c239 - (17=3456)r1247c7 - 3r7c8 =UR= 9r9c3 => -45r9c3; stte

or right/left reversed:

9r9c3 =UR= 3r7c8 - 3456r1247c7 = 137r2c279 - (1=45)r27c3 => -45r9c3; stte
blue
 
Posts: 611
Joined: 11 March 2013

Re: August 5, 2015

Postby JC Van Hay » Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:37 am

blue wrote:9r9c3 =UR= 3r7c8 - ...
Can be replaced by 9r9c3=9r4c3-9r4c8=(9-3)r5c8=3r7c8 - ... ;)
JC Van Hay
 
Posts: 719
Joined: 22 May 2010

Re: August 5, 2015

Postby blue » Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:09 pm

JC Van Hay wrote:
blue wrote:9r9c3 =UR= 3r7c8 - ...
Can be replaced by 9r9c3=9r4c3-9r4c8=(9-3)r5c8=3r7c8 - ... ;)

Thank you :!:
! looked at this option too: 9r9c3=r9c1-(9=3)r5c17 - ...
blue
 
Posts: 611
Joined: 11 March 2013

Re: August 5, 2015

Postby daj95376 » Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:13 pm

blue wrote:
Code: Select all
+---------------------+----------+----------------------+
| 4568  9     2458    | 1  36  7 | (456)   2456    235  |
| 46    (37)  (14)    | 5  9   2 | (1467)  8       (13) |
| 56    37    125     | 8  36  4 | 9       2567    1235 |
+---------------------+----------+----------------------+
| 3     2     89      | 4  7   1 | (56)    569     58   |
| 19    5     7       | 6  2   8 | 13      39      4    |
| 18    4     6       | 3  5   9 | 17      27      128  |
+---------------------+----------+----------------------+
| 7     1     (45)*   | 2  8   6 | (345)   (3)45*  9    |
| 2     6     3       | 9  4   5 | 8       1       7    |
| 459   8     (9)-45* | 7  1   3 | 2       45*     6    |
+---------------------+----------+----------------------+

using UR <45>r79c38:

45r27c3 = 137r2c239 - (17=3456)r1247c7 - 3r7c8 =UR= 9r9c3 => -45r9c3; stte

or right/left reversed:

9r9c3 =UR= 3r7c8 - 3456r1247c7 = 137r2c279 - (1=45)r27c3 => -45r9c3; stte

Congratulations! You lost me with your notation. The best I could do to recreate what I think you meant. This should read bidirectional.

Code: Select all
 Legend: -( 4 | 6 ) --> ( -4 & -6 )
         -( 4 & 6 ) --> ( -4 | -6 )

 discontinuous loop:

 9r9c3 =UR= 3r7c8 - (3=4&6)r147c7 - (4|6=137)r2c279 - (1=9)r279c3


FWIW:

Code: Select all
 +--------------------------------------------------------------+
 |  4568  9     2458  |  1     36    7     |  456   2456  235   |
 | f46    37    1-4   |  5     9     2     | f1467  8     13    |
 |  56    37    125   |  8     36    4     |  9     2567  1235  |
 |--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
 |  3     2     89    |  4     7     1     |  56    569   58    |
 | c19    5     7     |  6     2     8     | d13    39    4     |
 |  18    4     6     |  3     5     9     | e17    27    128   |
 |--------------------+--------------------+--------------------|
 |  7     1    a45    |  2     8     6     |  345   345   9     |
 |  2     6     3     |  9     4     5     |  8     1     7     |
 | b459   8    a459   |  7     1     3     |  2     45    6     |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------+
 # 55 eliminations remain

 4r79c3 = (4-9)r9c1 = (9-1)r5c1 = (1*)r5c7 - (1=7)r6c7 - (*17=46)r2c17  =>  -4 r2c3

_
Last edited by daj95376 on Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
daj95376
2014 Supporter
 
Posts: 2624
Joined: 15 May 2006

Re: August 5, 2015

Postby blue » Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:09 pm

daj95376 wrote:
blue wrote:
Code: Select all
+---------------------+----------+----------------------+
| 4568  9     2458    | 1  36  7 | (456)   2456    235  |
| 46    (37)  (14)    | 5  9   2 | (1467)  8       (13) |
| 56    37    125     | 8  36  4 | 9       2567    1235 |
+---------------------+----------+----------------------+
| 3     2     89      | 4  7   1 | (56)    569     58   |
| 19    5     7       | 6  2   8 | 13      39      4    |
| 18    4     6       | 3  5   9 | 17      27      128  |
+---------------------+----------+----------------------+
| 7     1     (45)*   | 2  8   6 | (345)   (3)45*  9    |
| 2     6     3       | 9  4   5 | 8       1       7    |
| 459   8     (9)-45* | 7  1   3 | 2       45*     6    |
+---------------------+----------+----------------------+

using UR <45>r79c38:

45r27c3 = 137r2c239 - (17=3456)r1247c7 - 3r7c8 =UR= 9r9c3 => -45r9c3; stte

or right/left reversed:

9r9c3 =UR= 3r7c8 - 3456r1247c7 = 137r2c279 - (1=45)r27c3 => -45r9c3; stte

Congratulations! You lost me with your notation. The best I could do to recreate what I think you meant. This should read bidirectional.

Code: Select all
 Legend: -( 4 | 6 ) --> ( -4 & -6 )

 discontinuous loop:

 9r9c3 =UR= 3r7c8 - (3=456)r147c7 - (4|6=137)r2c279 - (1=459)r279c3

Hi Danny,

Yes, that's what I meant.
My 2nd ("left/right reversed") version was an afterthought.

In the original version, I couldn't do anything similar, starting with "(45=1)r27c3 - ...", since I needed both the 1 in r2c3 and the 7 in r2c2, to work against the 17 in r2c7. When I looked at reversing the chain, I saw the same thing that you did, and I was a little concerned about the fact that it used one more '=' symbol than in the original version. Then I realized that the "3456r1247c7 = 137r2c279" link that I settled on, wasn't much different than the "45r27c3 = 137r2c239" link in the original version, and I added the 2nd version to the end of the post.

I hoped to generate some discussion about the idea of using a strong link between locked sets that overlap in a cell (or cells?), but that don't share any candidates. I don't recall seeing anything like that before ... which isn't saying a lot.

BTW: In the 1st version, I should have used "- (1|7=3456)r1248c7", like you did here [ instead of "- (17=3456)r1248c7" ].
blue
 
Posts: 611
Joined: 11 March 2013

Re: August 5, 2015

Postby daj95376 » Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:18 pm

blue wrote:I hoped to generate some discussion about the idea of using a strong link between locked sets that overlap in a cell (or cells?), but that don't share any candidates. I don't recall seeing anything like that before ... which isn't saying a lot.

Good luck. After SteveG48's solution to the July 25th puzzle, I've given up on trying to discuss most notation. However, I normally do really well following your notation, so I knew that I wanted to discuss your solution when I got lost following the notation.


If you do get a successful discussion going on notation, then I hope you manage to include the various possible interpretations of "nm". I think it has progressed past being a pair in two cells.

BTW: I updated my chain's notation in hopes of generating a discussion (as well).

Code: Select all
 Legend: -( 4 | 6 ) --> ( -4 & -6 )
         -( 4 & 6 ) --> ( -4 | -6 )

 discontinuous loop:

 9r9c3 =UR= 3r7c8 - (3=4&6)r147c7 - (4|6=137)r2c279 - (1=9)r279c3


Bottom Line: Nothing replaces a proper network diagram (using multiple lines) at times.

_
daj95376
2014 Supporter
 
Posts: 2624
Joined: 15 May 2006

Re: August 5, 2015

Postby ArkieTech » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:05 am

daj95376 wrote:
Code: Select all
 Legend: -( 4 | 6 ) --> ( -4 & -6 )
         -( 4 & 6 ) --> ( -4 | -6 )

 discontinuous loop:

 9r9c3 =UR= 3r7c8 - (3=4&6)r147c7 - (4|6=137)r2c279 - (1=9)r279c3

_


I like the solution and understand the notation. 8-)

Questions

1. discontinuous loop? I see a conflict -9r9c3=459r279c3
2. still don't see the need for the and/or logic when it can be displayed as a locked set.

Help would be appreciated.

Code: Select all
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
 | 4568  9     2458  | 1     36    7     | 456   2456  235   |
 | 46    37    14    | 5     9     2     | 1467  8     13    |
 | 56    37    125   | 8     36    4     | 9     2567  1235  |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 3     2     89    | 4     7     1     | 56    569   58    |
 | 19    5     7     | 6     2     8     | 13    39    4     |
 | 18    4     6     | 3     5     9     | 17    27    128   |
 |-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 7     1     45    | 2     8     6     | 345   345   9     |
 | 2     6     3     | 9     4     5     | 8     1     7     |
 | 459   8     459   | 7     1     3     | 2     45    6     |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
9r9c3 =UR= 3r7c8 - (3=4&6)r147c7 - (4|6=137)r2c279 - (1=9)r279c3

I see it as:

[(9r9c3=3r7c8)ur:45r79c38-(3=456)r147c7-(46=137)r2c279-(1=9)r279c3]-45r9c3; ste
dan
User avatar
ArkieTech
 
Posts: 2865
Joined: 29 May 2006
Location: NW Arkansas USA

Re: August 5, 2015

Postby bat999 » Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:34 am

Code: Select all
.-------------------.----------.--------------------.
| b4568   9    2458 | 1  36  7 | d456   2456   235  |
| b46    c37  c14   | 5  9   2 | d1467  8     c13   |
| b56     37   125  | 8  36  4 |  9     2567   1235 |
:-------------------+----------+--------------------:
|  3      2    89   | 4  7   1 | d56    569    58   |
|  9-1    5    7    | 6  2   8 | f13    39     4    |
| a18     4    6    | 3  5   9 |  17    27     128  |
:-------------------+----------+--------------------:
|  7      1    45   | 2  8   6 | e345   345    9    |
|  2      6    3    | 9  4   5 |  8     1      7    |
|  459    8    459  | 7  1   3 |  2     45     6    |
'-------------------'----------'--------------------'
(1=8)r6c1 - (8=456)r123c1 - (4=713)r2c239 - (17=456)r124c7 - (45=3)r7c7 - (3=1)r5c7 => -1 r5c1; stte
8-)

EDIT
Changed it from discontinuity/contradiction to AIC equivalent. :)
8-)
bat999
2017 Supporter
 
Posts: 677
Joined: 15 September 2014
Location: UK

Re: August 5, 2015

Postby daj95376 » Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:04 am

ArkieTech wrote:Questions

1. discontinuous loop? I see a conflict -9r9c3=459r279c3
2. still don't see the need for the and/or logic when it can be displayed as a locked set.

In an ALS term, the possible position of every value must be evaluated since Eureka notation doesn't full qualify what's going on.

It's a discontinuous loop because we start with -9r9c3 and we end with =4r2c3, =5r7c3, and =9r9c3.

As for the and/or logic, it's for splitting hairs on how candidate pairs are interpreted. As long as your readers don't complain about your usage, don't worry about splitting hairs.

The chain that you listed simply adds an AIC conclusion onto the end of the discontinuous loop that you have within the [...]. You should have added -9r9c1 and -9r4c3 to your list of eliminations in the AIC conclusion.

_
daj95376
2014 Supporter
 
Posts: 2624
Joined: 15 May 2006

Next

Return to Puzzles