August 19, 2018

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August 19, 2018

Postby ArkieTech » Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:02 am

Code: Select all
 *-----------*
 |..4|...|...|
 |.75|.9.|.8.|
 |8..|61.|...|
 |---+---+---|
 |4.6|5..|..7|
 |.51|...|89.|
 |7..|..1|4.3|
 |---+---+---|
 |...|.57|..1|
 |.3.|.8.|56.|
 |...|...|3..|
 *-----------*


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Re: August 19, 2018

Postby pjb » Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:42 am

Code: Select all
a29      16      4      | 278    27    c258    | 16     3     b59     
 16      7       5      | 24     9      3      | 16     8      24     
 8       2-9     3      | 6      1      245    | 7      24     59     
------------------------+----------------------+---------------------
 4      e89      6      | 5      3     d89     | 2      1      7     
 3       5       1      | 247    247    24     | 8      9      6     
 7       289     29     | 89     6      1      | 4      5      3     
------------------------+----------------------+---------------------
 26      46      8      | 3      5      7      | 9      24     1     
 129     3       7      | 1249   8      249    | 5      6      24     
 5       14      29     | 1249   24     6      | 3      7      8     

(9)r1c1 = (9-5)r1c9 = (5-8)r1c6 = r4c6 - (8=9)r4c2 => -9 r3c2; stte

Phil
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Re: August 19, 2018

Postby SpAce » Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:09 pm

Code: Select all
.-----------------.--------------------.-----------------.
|e2(9)*   16   4  | 278   27   c258    | 16  3   e5(9)*  |
| 16      7    5  | 24    9     3      | 16  8    24     |
| 8       2-9  3  | 6     1    b245    | 7   24  ea5(9)* |
:-----------------+--------------------+-----------------:
| 4       89   6  | 5     3    d8(9)#  | 2   1   7       |
| 3       5    1  | 247   247   24     | 8   9   6       |
| 7       289  29 | 89    6     1      | 4   5   3       |
:-----------------+--------------------+-----------------:
| 26      46   8  | 3     5     7      | 9   24  1       |
|e12(9)*  3    7  | 1249  8    e24(9)* | 5   6   24      |
| 5       14   29 | 1249  24    6      | 3   7   8       |
'--------------'-----------------------'-----------------'

Kraken Sashimi Swordfish 9 c169/r138 fr4c6

(9=5)r3c9 - r3c6 = (5-8)r1c6 = (8-9)r4c6 = Swordfish:[9 c169/r138] => -9 r3c2; stte
Last edited by SpAce on Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-SpAce-: Show
Code: Select all
   *             |    |               |    |    *
        *        |=()=|    /  _  \    |=()=|               *
            *    |    |   |-=( )=-|   |    |      *
     *                     \  ¯  /                   *   

"If one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic narrow view of the Jedi."
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Re: August 19, 2018

Postby Ngisa » Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:44 pm

Code: Select all
+---------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
|a29       16      4  |d278       27      c258 | 16     3      b59 |
| 16       7       5  | 24        9        3   | 16     8       24 |
| 8        29      3  | 6         1        245 | 7      24      59 |
+---------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
| 4        89      6  | 5         3        89  | 2      1       7  |
| 3        5       1  | 247       247      24  | 8      9       6  |
| 7        289    f29 | e89       6        1   | 4      5       3  |
+---------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
| 26       46      8  | 3         5        7   | 9      24      1  |
| 12-9     3       7  | 1249      8        249 | 5      6       24 |
| 5        14     g29 | 1249      24       6   | 3      7       8  |
+---------------------+------------------------+-------------------+

(9)r1c1 = (9-5)r1c9 = (5-8)r1c6 = r1c4 - (8=9)r6c4 - r6c3 = (9)r9c3 => - 9r8c1; stte

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Re: August 19, 2018

Postby Cenoman » Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:22 pm

Code: Select all
 +-------------------+---------------------+-----------------+
 | a29    16    4    | a278   a27   b258   |  16   3    59   |
 |  16    7     5    |  24     9     3     |  16   8    24   |
 |  8     29    3    |  6      1    b245   |  7    24   59   |
 +-------------------+---------------------+-----------------+
 |  4     89    6    |  5      3     89    |  2    1    7    |
 |  3     5     1    |  247    247  b24    |  8    9    6    |
 |  7     289   29   |  89     6     1     |  4    5    3    |
 +-------------------+---------------------+-----------------+
 |  26    46    8    |  3      5     7     |  9    24   1    |
 |  12-9  3     7    |  1249   8    b249   |  5    6    24   |
 |  5     14    29   |  1249   24    6     |  3    7    8    |
 +-------------------+---------------------+-----------------+

(927=8)r1c145 - (8=2459)r1358 => -9 r8c1; ste
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Re: August 19, 2018

Postby SteveG48 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:39 pm

Code: Select all
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*
 | 9-2   16    4     |d278  d27    258   | 16    3     59    |
 | 16    7     5     | 24    9     3     | 16    8     24    |
 | 8    a29    3     | 6     1     45-2  | 7     24    59    |
 *-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 4    a89    6     | 5     3     89    | 2     1     7     |
 | 3     5     1     | 247   247   24    | 8     9     6     |
 | 7    b289   29    |c89    6     1     | 4     5     3     |
 *-------------------+-------------------+-------------------|
 | 26    46    8     | 3     5     7     | 9     24    1     |
 | 129   3     7     | 1249  8     249   | 5     6     24    |
 | 5     14    29    | 1249  24    6     | 3     7     8     |
 *-----------------------------------------------------------*


(2=89)r34c2 - 8r6c2 = r6c4 - (8=27)r1c45 => -2 r1c1,r3c6 ; stte
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Re: August 19, 2018

Postby SpAce » Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:01 pm

Sorry for the double post, but I'm trying to practice some (to me) new techniques.

Code: Select all
.----------------.------------------.------------.
| 9-2*   16   4  | 278   27  b258   | 16  3   59 |
| 16     7    5  | 24    9    3     | 16  8   24 |
| 8     f29*  3  | 6     1   a45-2# | 7   24* 59 |
:----------------+------------------+------------:
| 4      89   6  | 5     3   c89    | 2   1   7  |
| 3      5    1  | 247   247  24    | 8   9   6  |
| 7     e289  29 |d89    6    1     | 4   5   3  |
:----------------+------------------+------------:
| 26*    46   8  | 3     5    7     | 9   24* 1  |
| 2-19#  3    7  | 1249  8    249   | 5   6   24 |
| 5      14   29 | 1249  24   6     | 3   7   8  |
'----------------'------------------'------------'



5-link Oddagon (2)*, two guardians: r3c6, r8c1 #

(2)r8c1 (-> -2 r1c1)
||
(2-5)r3c6 = (5-8)r1c6 = r1c4 - r6c4 = (8-2)r6c2 = (2)r3c2 (=> -2 r3c6)

=> -2 r1c1, r3c6; +2r8c1; stte

...or another point of view of the same:

Code: Select all
.--------------.------------------.------------.
| 9-2  16   4  | 278   27   258   | 16  3   59 |
| 16   7    5  | 24    9    3     | 16  8   24 |
| 8    29*  3  | 6     1    45-2# | 7   24* 59 |
:--------------+------------------+------------:
| 4    89   6  | 5     3    89    | 2   1   7  |
| 3    5    1  | 247   247  24    | 8   9   6  |
| 7    289  29 | 89    6    1     | 4   5   3  |
:--------------+------------------+------------:
| 26*  46   8  | 3     5    7     | 9   24* 1  |
| 129  3    7  | 1249  8    249   | 5   6   24 |
| 5    14   29 | 1249  24   6     | 3   7   8  |
'--------------'------------------'------------'

Kraken Finned Skyscraper

*Skyscraper:[(2)r3c2 = r3c8 - r7c8 = (2)r7c1] (-> -2 r1c1)
||
#Fin:(2-5)r3c6 = (5-8)r1c6 = r1c4 - r6c4 = (8-2)r6c2 = (2)r3c2 (=> -2 r3c6)



=> -2 r1c1, r3c6; stte

Can these be considered one-step solutions or not? Technically they're not, I guess, because the guardian/fin elimination can be seen as a prerequisite. Logically they are, however, if each guardian/fin is allowed two possibilities: either it kills the target or it kills itself (thus becoming irrelevant). From a human solver's point of view it's a single pattern and a single step.
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Code: Select all
   *             |    |               |    |    *
        *        |=()=|    /  _  \    |=()=|               *
            *    |    |   |-=( )=-|   |    |      *
     *                     \  ¯  /                   *   

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Re: August 19, 2018

Postby Sudtyro2 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:17 pm

SpAce wrote: Can these be considered one-step solutions or not? Technically they're not, I guess, because the guardian/fin elimination can be seen as a prerequisite.

Code: Select all
+-----------------+---------------+------------+
| 29   16     4   |c278  27 b258  | 16  3   59 |
| 16   7      5   | 24   9   3    | 16  8   24 |
| 8    29*    3   | 6    1  a245# | 7   24* 59 |
+-----------------+---------------+------------+
| 4    89     6   | 5    3   89   | 2   1   7  |
| 3    5      1   | 247  247 24   | 8   9   6  |
| 7   e89-2* C29* |d89   6   1    | 4   5   3  |
+-----------------+---------------+------------+
| 26*  46     8   | 3    5   7    | 9   24* 1  |
|A129# 3      7   | 1249 8   249  | 5   6   24 |
| 5    14    B29* | 1249 24  6    | 3   7   8  |
+-----------------+---------------+------------+

Hi SpAce. Why not completely avoid the 2-stepper issue with something (borrowing from one of your chains) like...
In 2s, a 7-link oddagon(*) having two guardians(#):
Code: Select all
(2-5)r3c6 = (5-8)r1c6 = r1c4 - r6c4 = 8r6c2 - 2r6c2; abcde
2r8c1 - r9c3 = 2r6c3                        - 2r6c2; ABC
=> stte

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Re: August 19, 2018

Postby SpAce » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:46 am

Sudtyro2 wrote:Hi SpAce. Why not completely avoid the 2-stepper issue with something (borrowing from one of your chains) like...
In 2s, a 7-link oddagon(*) having two guardians(#): ...

Thanks, Steve! Of course that's better. However, my question had a more general scope. I just started experimenting with Oddagons (and related finned single-digit patterns) a couple of days ago and noticed this situation to be quite common in the small sample I've looked into. Even if it's considered a two-stepper or otherwise ugly (which it is, of course) in this context, it might have some merit as an actual humanly applicable solving method when step count is irrelevant.

It seems quite easy to form oddagons and check those guardians for either their Kraken potential as a full group or after some are eliminated. Of course I don't know how common it actually is, but so far in pretty much every case I could form an oddagon, I could also do either a direct Kraken elimination or one after easily eliminating one of the guardians (if one seems to resist the general tendency of the group, it seems to have a high likelihood of creating a contradiction). If my observation has any generality, it seems like an easy way to find potential eliminations manually.

Less importantly, I still think it's logically a one-stepper if the guardian/fin elimination is found as a result of that Kraken checking process, but I'm fine if that view isn't accepted in this context. To me that particular OR-branch just turns out to be null but can still be considered part of the original Kraken. (It goes without saying that as a separate step I wouldn't present an elimination as a contradiction, even though it's just as logical as any.)
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Code: Select all
   *             |    |               |    |    *
        *        |=()=|    /  _  \    |=()=|               *
            *    |    |   |-=( )=-|   |    |      *
     *                     \  ¯  /                   *   

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