An odd request

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An odd request

Postby Gen Eltax » Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:44 pm

Hi there, I modified one of the puzzles on the list of 17-hint ones, and I just wanted someone to check a few things:

1) Is it still valid? I'm not entirely sure on this row swapping business, so I went by instinct.

2) How hard is it? I admit I'm useless at sudoku and want to set the puzzle rather than solve it, so just a general level would be nice to know if it'd be impossible for my target audience.

3) Uh... could I have a fully solved grid, please? As above, I'm setting rather than solving and can't sudoku for the life of me.

Here's the puzzle:

Code: Select all
54.|...|...
.1.|...|7..
...|7..|86.
---+---+---
...|...|.1.
...|8.3|...
...|2..|.5.
---+---+---
...|.1.|...
..8|...|3..
2..|..6|...
Gen Eltax
 
Posts: 2
Joined: 07 July 2006

Re: An odd request

Postby ravel » Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:54 pm

Gen Eltax wrote:1) Is it still valid?

Yes
2) How hard is it?

Easy, needs one pair and singles only
3) Uh... could I have a fully solved grid, please?


Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+
| 5 4 7 | 1 6 8 | 2 3 9 |
| 8 1 6 | 9 3 2 | 7 4 5 |
| 9 3 2 | 7 4 5 | 8 6 1 |
+-------+-------+-------+
| 3 2 5 | 6 7 4 | 9 1 8 |
| 6 9 1 | 8 5 3 | 4 2 7 |
| 7 8 4 | 2 9 1 | 6 5 3 |
+-------+-------+-------+
| 4 6 9 | 3 1 7 | 5 8 2 |
| 1 5 8 | 4 2 9 | 3 7 6 |
| 2 7 3 | 5 8 6 | 1 9 4 |
+-------+-------+-------+
ravel
 
Posts: 998
Joined: 21 February 2006

Postby ab » Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:26 pm

hmm what are you setting for? Hopefully not passing off someone else's sudoku as your own!

There is software available to check sudokus and some of it is even free!

For instance:
http://uk.geocities.com/aidan_001/software.html
ab
 
Posts: 451
Joined: 06 September 2005

Postby tso » Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:54 pm

Though how difficult it is depends on your audience -- this is an easy puzzle for this forum -- I'd rate this one "medium" for the general public. This is the rating it would get in most newspapers. Solving without pencilmarks, using "crosshatching" only, there are two points in the process that would require something beyond the simplest logic. A skilled solver might not notice the difference, but a beginner might get stuck.


Most of the puzzle can be solved without pencilmarks with the easiest (and most fun) tactic, often called "crosshatching" (aka "hidden singles" or "pinned squares", etc).

For example, the 7s in rows 2 and 3 cross out all but one of the available cells in box 1 -- so you can place a 7 in row one, column 3.

Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+
| 5 4 . | . . . | . . . |
| x 1 x | . . . | 7 . . | <--
| x x x | 7 . . | 8 6 . | <--
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | . . . | . 1 . |
| . . . | 8 . 3 | . . . |
| . . . | 2 . . | . 5 . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | . 1 . | . . . |
| . . 8 | . . . | 3 . . |
| 2 . . | . . 6 | . . . |
+-------+-------+-------+


That's all you need to do for most of the puzzle -- except two points:

The 3s in row 5 and row 8 cross out all but two of the cells in column 5, not quite enough to place a number:
Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+
| 5 4 7 | 1 6 8 | . 3 . |
| 8 1 6 | . . . | 7 4 5 |
| . . . | 7 . . | 8 6 1 |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | 6 x . | . 1 . |
| . . 1 | 8 x 3 | . . . |
| . . . | 2 x 1 | . 5 . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | . 1 . | 5 8 . |
| 1 . 8 | . x . | 3 . . |
| 2 . . | . 8 6 | 1 . . |
+-------+-------+-------+

Look in box 1 -- though there is no 3 placed there yet, you can see that it must be in row 3 -- so you can crosshatch one more cell from column 5 and place a 3 at r2c5. This is slightly more difficult than the simplest tactic, but I think most beginners could find this without needing pencilmarks.

A little later, the solver will come to this point:
Code: Select all
+-------+-------+-------+
| 5 4 7 | 1 6 8 | 2 3 9 |
| 8 1 6 | 9 3 2 | 7 4 5 |
| . . . | 7 . . | 8 6 1 |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . . . | 6 . . | . 1 . |
| . . 1 | 8 . 3 | . 2 7 |
| . . . | 2 . 1 | . 5 . |
+-------+-------+-------+
| . x . | * 1 . | 5 8 2 |
| 1 x 8 | . 2 . | 3 . 6 |
| 2 x x | . 8 6 | 1 . 4 |
+-------+-------+-------+


There are three cells open in column 4 -- they must be 3, 4 and 5 in some order. Row 7 column 4 (with the asterisk) must be 3, 4 or 5. But there's a 5 in row 7 -- so it must be a 3 or 4. But the 4s in row 1 and 9 crossout all all but two cells in box 7, both of which are in row 7-- so you know that the 4 in box 7 must be in row 7 -- so now our target cell cannot be a 4 either, allowing a placement of 3.

This step is beyond most casual players to accomplish without at least a few pencilmarks, and this is what changes this puzzle from "easy" to "medium". Using pencilmarks, this step is no more difficult than the first sticking point.
tso
 
Posts: 798
Joined: 22 June 2005

Postby Gen Eltax » Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:37 am

Thanks a lot guys, you've been a great help. Especially that involved analysis, I'm pretty sure my audience would get through those.

ab wrote:hmm what are you setting for? Hopefully not passing off someone else's sudoku as your own!

A series of puzzles I'm working on for another online community. I just needed a sudoku with certain cells filled, and others deliberately not filled. I figured the 17 givens would give me something eventually.

Oh, and I'll be sure to credit the page once it's over.
Gen Eltax
 
Posts: 2
Joined: 07 July 2006


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