The New Sudoku Players' Forum

[RichardGoodrich]

Denis Berthier DB, in his "Hidden Logic of Sudoku, Second Edition" HLS2 calls this an Extended Sudoku Board

I put this text grid here so I can remember and copy it! I just call it the: board

Code: Select all

 c1 = 1  2  3   4  5  6   7  8  9    n1 = 1  2  3   4  5  6   7  8  9
    .---------.---------.---------.     .---------.---------.---------.
 r1 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |  r1 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |
 r2 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |  r2 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |
 r3 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |  r3 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |
    :---------+---------+---------:     :---------+---------+---------:
 r4 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |  r4 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |
 r5 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |  r5 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |
 r6 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |  r6 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |
    :---------+---------+---------:     :---------+---------+---------:
 r7 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |  r7 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |
 r8 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |  r8.| .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |
 r9 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |  r9 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |
    '---------'---------'---------'     '---------'---------'---------'
 c1 = 1  2  3   4  5  6   7  8  9    n1 = 1  2  3   4  5  6   7  8  9
    .---------.---------.---------.     .---------.---------.---------.
 n1 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |  b1 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |
 n2 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |  b2 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |
 n3 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |  b3 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |
    :---------+---------+---------:     :---------+---------+---------:
 n4 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |  b4 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |
 n5 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |  b5 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |
 n6 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |  b6 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |
    :---------+---------+---------:     :---------+---------+---------:
 n7 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |  b7 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |
 n8 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |  b8.| .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |
 n9 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |  b9 | .  .  . | .  .  . | .  .  . |
    '---------'---------'---------'     '---------'---------'---------'


The Verbosity (You can skip this part!)

There should be a another name for this besides DB's grids or board, but I am not sure other than "4-Grid" system? Perhaps DB-4G would be an option?

It is sudoku_board in the Python code of my biGSDK. The SDK part is for "Software Development Kit" The biG part is meant to be a recursive acronym. It is also what my friends call me. (And I hope my enemies don't call me!) My grandkids named me that because I am physically larger than their dad (my son). He is their little dad and I became the Big dad. I realized I was really not that big in the grand scheme of things!

So I changed the case to: biG Which depending on the day and circumstaces could be (you can pick your preference)

big in God
big into Grids
berthier in Grids

When, I am working with it, I like to just call it the board

Hopefully it is clear that from top-down, left to right this represents the RCN, RNC, NCR, BNS grids. In geneal DB calls these abstract spaces" . DB insists on calling the NCR grid the CNR grid even though he prefers this representation for the symmetry of its appearance. Not sure why this makes any difference as I prefer to just call it NCR!

DB also refers to these as: RC-space, RN-space, NC-space*, BN-space
DB refes to the cells as: RC-cells, RN-cells, NC-cells*, BN-cells

* again DB prefers CN vs NC

[coloin]

Hopefully it is clear that from top-down, left to right this represents ...

Please give an example how this works because it is not clear !

[denis_berthier]

.
SudoRules has commands to print the Extended Sudoku Board at any point of the resolution process.

Example from the User Manual, section 6.7:

Code: Select all

.......31.8..4.....7.......1.63...7.3............8....54....8.....6..2.....1.....

After Singles, the resolution state is automatically printed in the usual rc-space:

Code: Select all

   +----------------+----------------+----------------+
   ! 4    6    5    ! 8    279  29   ! 79   3    1    !
   ! 29   8    1    ! 2579 4    3    ! 6    259  2579 !
   ! 29   7    3    ! 259  1    6    ! 59   8    4    !
   +----------------+----------------+----------------+
   ! 1    29   6    ! 3    29   5    ! 4    7    8    !
   ! 3    259  8    ! 4    6    7    ! 1    259  259  !
   ! 7    259  4    ! 29   8    1    ! 3    6    259  !
   +----------------+----------------+----------------+
   ! 5    4    279  ! 279  3    29   ! 8    1    6    !
   ! 8    1    79   ! 6    579  4    ! 2    59   3    !
   ! 6    3    279  ! 1    2579 8    ! 579  4    579  !
   +----------------+----------------+----------------+

If you want it to be printed in the four 2D-spaces, just type (print-RS-all) and you'll get the 4 2D-views:

Code: Select all

standard rc-view:
Physical rows are rows, physical columns are columns. Data are digits.
   4         6         5         8         279       29        79        3         1         
   29        8         1         2579      4         3         6         259       2579     
   29        7         3         259       1         6         59        8         4         
   1         29        6         3         29        5         4         7         8         
   3         259       8         4         6         7         1         259       259       
   7         259       4         29        8         1         3         6         259       
   5         4         279       279       3         29        8         1         6         
   8         1         79        6         579       4         2         59        3         
   6         3         279       1         2579      8         579       4         579       

The following representations, first introduced in the "Hidden Logic of Sudoku"  (HLS, 2007),
may be used e.g. to more easily spot:
rn-, cn- or bn- bivalue pairs (also named bilocal pairs),
mono-typed-chains (the 2D-chains of HLS),
Hidden Subsets and Fishes (which will appear as Naked Subsets in the proper space).

rn-view:
Physical rows are rows, physical columns are digits. Data are columns.
   9         56        8         1         3         2         57        4         567       
   3         1489      6         5         489       7         49        2         1489     
   5         14        3         9         47        6         2         8         147       
   1         25        4         7         6         3         8         9         25       
   7         289       1         4         289       5         6         3         289       
   6         249       7         3         29        8         1         5         249       
   8         346       5         2         1         9         34        7         346       
   2         7         9         6         58        4         35        1         358       
   4         35        2         8         579       1         3579      6         3579     

cn-view:
Physical rows are columns, physical columns are digits. Data are rows.
   4         23        5         1         7         9         6         8         23       
   8         456       9         7         56        1         3         2         456       
   2         79        3         6         1         4         789       5         789       
   9         2367      4         5         23        8         27        1         2367     
   3         149       7         2         89        5         189       6         1489     
   6         17        2         8         4         3         5         9         17       
   5         8         6         4         39        2         19        7         139       
   7         25        1         9         258       6         4         3         258       
   1         256       8         3         2569      7         29        4         2569     

bn-view:
Physical rows are blocks, physical columns are digits. Data are positions in a block.
   6         47        9         1         3         2         8         5         47       
   8         2347      6         5         47        9         24        1         2347     
   3         56        2         9         567       4         16        8         1567     
   1         258       4         9         58        3         7         6         258       
   9         27        1         4         3         5         6         8         27       
   4         569       7         1         569       8         2         3         569       
   5         39        8         2         1         7         369       4         369       
   7         138       2         6         58        4         158       9         1358     
   2         4         6         8         579       3         79        1         579       

You can also choose only 1 specific view, e.g. (print-RS-rn):

Code: Select all

rn-view:
Physical rows are rows, physical columns are digits. Data are columns.
   9         56        8         1         3         2         57        4         567       
   3         1489      6         5         489       7         49        2         1489     
   5         14        3         9         47        6         2         8         147       
   1         25        4         7         6         3         8         9         25       
   7         289       1         4         289       5         6         3         289       
   6         249       7         3         29        8         1         5         249       
   8         346       5         2         1         9         34        7         346       
   2         7         9         6         58        4         35        1         358       
   4         35        2         8         579       1         3579      6         3579     

You can apply any of these commands at any time.

As for vocabulary, I don't "insist" on calling theses grids the NCR or the CNR grids: I've have always called them the four rc, rn, cn and bn views of the same resolution state or the rc, rn, cn and bn spaces or the four 2D-spaces; and the cells in them are the rc, rn, cn and bn cells.
.

[RichardGoodrich]

I dont know what sudorules is? I saw a publication with that title. I this an actual app?

[RichardGoodrich]

Hopefully it is clear that from top-down, left to right this represents ...

Please give an example how this works because it is not clear !

This is just a text format that I use in a text editor when I am documenting a puzzle. I keep loosing it. I put the puzzle on one side and the solution on the other.

[RichardGoodrich]

Hopefully it is clear that from top-down, left to right this represents ...

Please give an example how this works because it is not clear !

I think I just realized what you are asking! I have read most of Denis Berthier's stuff relative to Sudoku and probably assumed you had too!

I actually programmed his grids in Python. I had both computer issues and getting old issues. I even had YouTube videos on it. At some point I got sick of youtube and deleted most of my videos. I could build my python code but had trouble teaching others. I can send a short video of just the program producing the grids? It was pretty cool! Berthier was interested for a bit, but he could not run it either! So for a few years I just gave up on it. I do have a github for BigSDK out there with the src code and some crude documentation. I hope to resurrect it one day! Was hoping some young buck would do it for me and make into something production ready! So far no takers....

[denis_berthier]

I dont know what sudorules is? I saw a publication with that title. I this an actual app?

It's mentioned in almost all my publications. Download here:https://github.com/denis-berthier/CSP-Rules-V2.1
.

[RichardGoodrich]

.
SudoRules has commands to print the Extended Sudoku Board at any point of the resolution process.

Why you ole dog! I just assumed you could not program and just read your document. From your respoitory I noticed another person was listed. I "assume" that is your programmer! I am hoping I can just run it on my linux distro. And then I noticed it was done in the D language - which I never heard of til now! Looks like something I might want to learn. It is either that or Rust. I suspect D is not quite as hard to learn as RUST.

If I "invoke" at this late date any latent programming skils, I would like to learn both. I will see what I can see! So aplogies, I just never got it there was an APP that did SudoRules. Maybe digging into that code I will really understand your whips? biG

[denis_berthier]

I just assumed you could not program and just read your document. From your respoitory I noticed another person was listed. I "assume" that is your programmer!

Where did you get the idea I can't program? The other person listed on GitHub helped me use GitHub at the start; GitHub is not very user friendly.
100% of the CSP-Rules "code" is mine.
In all my books, I speak of CSP-Rules and SudoRules. All the examples and all the statistical results I've published are the result of CSP-Rules (plus SHC for some of the recent results).

I am hoping I can just run it on my linux distro.

CSP-Rules can run on any computer.

And then I noticed it was done in the D language - which I never heard of til now! Looks like something I might want to learn. It is either that or Rust. I suspect D is not quite as hard to learn as RUST.

CSP-Rules is neither in D nor in Rust. It's in CLIPS, an AI language (not LISP, but a Lispian syntax). CLIPS is an inference engine. CLIPS itself is written in C and you can compile it just by typing "make" in the CLIPS/clips-core directory
In CLIPS, the rules are the code.
.

[RichardGoodrich]

I just assumed you could not program and just read your document. From your respoitory I noticed another person was listed. I "assume" that is your programmer!

Where did you get the idea I can't program? The other person listed on GitHub helped me use GitHub at the start; GitHub is not very user friendly.
100% of the CSP-Rules "code" is mine.
In all my books, I speak of CSP-Rules and SudoRules. All the examples and all the statistical results I've published are the result of CSP-Rules (plus SHC for some of the recent results).

I am hoping I can just run it on my linux distro.

CSP-Rules can run on any computer.

And then I noticed it was done in the D language - which I never heard of til now! Looks like something I might want to learn. It is either that or Rust. I suspect D is not quite as hard to learn as RUST.

CSP-Rules is neither in D nor in Rust. It's in CLIPS, an AI language (not LISP, but a Lispian syntax). CLIPS is an inference engine. CLIPS itself is written in C and you can compile it just by typing "make" in the CLIPS/clips-core directory
In CLIPS, the rules are the code.
.

Well, you never said before! You could not make my Python code run! You keep surprising me! What does the x68 mean when I see your credits. You graduated High School or University in 1968? What year were you born?

[denis_berthier]

What year were you born?

- some parts of me: some 13.7 billion years ago
- this body as a whole: significantly more recently
-this soul: doesn't answer to spacetime coordinates.
.

[RichardGoodrich]

What year were you born?

- some parts of me: some 13.7 billion years ago
- this body as a whole: significantly more recently
-this soul: doesn't answer to spacetime coordinates.
.

Well sometimes you don't have because you don't ask? And sometimes to describe something/someone it is easier to describe what it is not first. So now that I have some idea what you are not: It is amazing that you rose out of the primal ooze of the space time coordinates to emerge much like a modulo [13/17] cicada in Paris, France in 2025! Which must mean (x68) has no signficance to most people. Are you bi-parte or tri-parte on the soul thing? Which of the following:

three ED entities
body + mind = soul
entity in the ether

I am just going to put you down for 1945. There was abviously a war on!

[StrmCkr]

4 spaces: have been around since 2005~ on the defunct programmers forum with variations into how they store data

Mines been a 27 sector x 9 Digit : ( set) utilizing reference tables for visually displays) broken down by the 9 sectors since 2006 public released in 2009

Rn - saves positions(Col) for numbers
Cn- saves positions(Row) for numbers
Bn - saves positions(square) for numbers

RC (CELL) saves pencil-marks (I call mine PM space)

as a union of Digits (1-9) as Intersection of (Rn*Cn*Bn)

Hidden logic works directly off the Rn, Cn, Bn spaces

Naked logic operates off RC space.

Both of these can be twiddle to represent the other.

Fish logic operates on Rn, Cn, Bn space

Advanced space structures use the Rn, Cn, Bn spaces to create

Mini Rn (stores box)
Mini Cn (stores box)
Mini Bn (row) (stores Col)
Mini Bn (Col) (stores row)

These 4 spaces are the xor logic gates constructors for aic logic, as it represents 1 of the three partions is of.
(111 xor 222)

Eri : - 1 row and 1 Col are left as truth for a box (2cells minimal)
(6 types of aic xor gates) I can link if requested.

RC space is used to generate
N cells = N+x digits ( where x is the dof)
this creates Naked Locked sets and Als with x Dof

Rn, Cn, bn space is used to generate
N digits =N +x cells
this creates Hidden locked sets and Ahs with x dof.

More advanced aic use the ahs, Als as xor gates
(LS xor als)

Even More complex aic use
almost fish link ( (N base /n cover+k) xor cell(s))
Almost Msls links

edit: spelling, context.

[denis_berthier]

4 spaces: have been around since befor 2005 on the defunct programmers forum with variations into how they store data
Mines been a 27 sector x 9 Digit : ( set) utilizing reference tables for visuall displays) broken down by the 9 sectors since 2006

Bad luck for you, there's a copy of the "defunct" programmer's forum: http://programmers.enjoysudoku.com/www.setbb.com/sudoku/indexe115.html?mforum=sudoku
You should be easily able to find references for your otherwise void claims.
.

[StrmCkr]

http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/post45327.html#p45327 funny, cause you say the exact opposite in this post when it was brought up by pat that the concepts predate ab's post.

as I said many people had the same/similar concepts for spacial operation all of it points back to the setBB boards as far back as 2005.

my argument isn't void because I didn't make my code public, that has little relevance to what others did before me and you.

did I discredit you? With collating the idea's into 1 written work as an attempt to standardize it + trying to formalize it, nope. You did this.

I Still reference to them by your names instead of my own garbage as mine is listed: RCB[0..26][0..8]: {enumerated Set}

the only information I am stating is the idea's aren't unique to you and you alone, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this information, many things in sudoku have many finders
if there wasn't we wouldn't have 10+ names that I know of to describe a size 1 fish construct.