The New Sudoku Players' Forum

[daveisme]

Follow up on sybundle.com
Three grids were added in the past days:
http://www.subundle.com/etc/FUNS.htm.

Code: Select all

#   Extreme-5:
5 Diabolical/Extreme solutions in one grid, if the options are known. (20080803)
# Extreme5 + 1 clue   and solutions.
Not too tough, if just add one more clue.
Note options are not consistent with ratings now. (20080803)
# A SuBundle grid with 8 keys / 256 solutions. (20080804)

I am not ready for extremes yet, maybe somebody like to check if they are real?

[Pat]

Follow up on sybundle.com
Three grids were added in the past days:
http://www.subundle.com/etc/FUNS.htm

• Extreme-5:
  5 Diabolical/Extreme solutions in one grid, if the options are known. (20080803)
  
• Extreme5 + 1 clue and solutions.
  Not too tough, if just add one more clue.
  Note options are not consistent with ratings now. (20080803)
  
• A SuBundle grid with 8 keys / 256 solutions. (20080804)

I am not ready for extremes yet, maybe somebody like to check if they are real?

in your earlier Topic,
i gave you the pointer to Sudoku Explainer,
so you can check the difficulty-ratings yourself
instead of asking us.

i did look at "Extreme-5" --
the 5 puzzles are all rated 7.x

[Draco]

The first one (Extreme-5) is:

Code: Select all

.....57..43....2.8...9......8....6..1...5......21..4...1..3...2.27..4.63..4..98..

2689  69   1689 | 23468  12468  5      | 7   1349   1469
4     3    1569 | 67     167    167    | 2   159    8   
25678 567  1568 | 9      124678 123678 | 135 1345   1456
----------------+----------------------+----------------
3579  8    359  | 2347   2479   237    | 6   123579 1579
1     4679 369  | 234678 5      23678  | 39  23789  79 
35679 5679 2    | 1      6789   3678   | 4   35789  579
----------------+----------------------+----------------
5689  1    5689 | 5678   3      678    | 59  4579   2   
589   2    7    | 58     18     4      | 159 6      3   
356   56   4    | 2567   1267   9      | 8   157    157


And is certainly a very difficult puzzle as shown. My solver rates it as "Extreme" (toughest rating); SE gives it a 7.2.

While it looks like the puzzle creators want to play with r5c5 (change it from 5 to something else) I do not see their variants posted with this... just an image of one puzzle.

In trying other values, r5c5=6 yields a slightly less difficult puzzle (SE 7.1), r5c5=7 is rated as in between 5 and 6 by my solver, and as 7.2 by SE. r5c5=8 is SE 7.2 and rated harder than the previous 4 by my solver, while r5c5=9 also rates SE 7.2 and a bit harder still by my solver.

So... all are very difficult puzzles and there are 5 of 'em.

Cheers...

- drac

[Pat]

While it looks like the puzzle creators want to play with r5c5 (change it from 5 to something else) I do not see their variants posted with this... just an image of one puzzle.

their small "5" in r5c5 is intended to say there are 5 puzzles differing by the clue in r5c5 --

Code: Select all

 . . . | . . 5 | 7 . .
 4 3 . | . . . | 2 . 8
 . . . | 9 . . | . . .
-------+-------+------
 . 8 . | . . . | 6 . .
 1 . . | . _ . | . . .
 . . 2 | 1 . . | 4 . .
-------+-------+------
 . 1 . | . 3 . | . . 2
 . 2 7 | . . 4 | . 6 3
 . . 4 | . . 9 | 8 . .



-- which is true as you noted

r5c5 = 5-9

[daj95376]

i gave you the pointer to Sudoku Explainer, so you can check the difficulty-ratings yourself instead of asking us.

If you consider the number of times this member has referenced this web site, this smells like an attempt to SPAM the forum with references to get people to visit it.

[daveisme]

Pat: Thanks for the pointer and help.
The Explainer give me 2 solutions ( 5 and 6 ), without pointing out which one of (256789) is invalid. If the key can not be reached, forget about the rest of it. I am not interesting the answers, there are tons of solvers. The Explainer in this case, did not help either.
Andrew Stuart's solver failed it too. Do I must guess to get to the key for this one?

Draco: Thanks for the help.
But again, how did you come up with the correct 5 options ?? from the final anwsers?
I am only a medium player. but also wondering how sudoku experts going to deal with this multiple thing.

daj95376:
I do visiting subundle site regularly, since my friend told me about it. And yes, I wish more people will visit them, so I can get some more info-sharing on their subundle games, such as this extreme-5. Personally, I think that is a better game.
I though sharing sudoku info is the purpose of this forum, maybe I am wrong, or it is just you.

[daj95376]

daj95376:
I do visiting subundle site regularly, since my friend told me about it. And yes, I wish more people will visit them, so I can get some more info-sharing on their subundle games, such as this extreme-5. Personally, I think that is a better game.
I though sharing sudoku info is the purpose of this forum, maybe I am wrong, or it is just you.

You aren't posting Sudoku information/puzzles in this forum. You're posting a bunch of messages referencing a web site. Personally, I intend to ignore any messages regarding that site. I suggest that everyone else boycott it as well.

[Glyn]

Without entering a value in r5c5 the grid solves to here

Code: Select all

.------------------.------------------.------------------.
| 8     9     6    | 3     2     5    | 7     1     4    |
| 4     3     5    | 67    67    1    | 2     9     8    |
| 2     7     1    | 9     4     8    | 35    35    6    |
:------------------+------------------+------------------:
| 7     8     39   | 4     59    2    | 6     35    1    |
| 1     4     39   | 58    56789 67   | 35    2     79   |
| 6     5     2    | 1     79    3    | 4     8     79   |
:------------------+------------------+------------------:
| 5     1     8    | 67    3     67   | 9     4     2    |
| 9     2     7    | 58    58    4    | 1     6     3    |
| 3     6     4    | 2     1     9    | 8     7     5    |
'------------------'------------------'------------------'

Almost BUG like

Possible UR58(r58c45). Given 5,8 resolves this.
Given 9 leads to one solution.
Left with 6 or 7 as choices stalls on a deadly pattern. Superimposed Swordfish r257c456 for 6 and 7. Given r5c5 resolves this.

[daveisme]

Pat and Drac: I applogize I did not post grids in the right format.
Still wish get your answers and opinions though.

Daj95376 wrote:
You aren't posting Sudoku information/puzzles in this forum. You're posting a bunch of messages referencing a web site. Personally, I intend to ignore any messages regarding that site. I suggest that everyone else boycott it as well.

Hey, no need to get upset with me or whatever.
just because someone publish a puzzle you can't solve properly

So far, I had posted 2 topics, both about interesting grids.
(one remain un-answered.) 3 replies, and 1 opinion.
Yes, all referred back to subundle web sites,
where all my info were originated.
Aren't you bit too jumpy? And that is SPAM ?
Well, maybe you do own this forum.

[Glyn]

daveisme I'm sure you must realise that many of us are easily capable of solving the puzzle with the given value. It is only Extreme in the eyes of the general public. In addition they have already determined the possible values of the trigger cell r5c5.

My analysis will probably enable grids of this type to be produced by others should they wish. I think the problem some have is your suggestion that this method of posing the puzzle transcends a fully specified starting grid, and also that all your posts have been on the same subject.

[daveisme]

Glyn: thanks for response.

In addition they have already determined the possible values of the trigger cell r5c5.

I can see they have use 56789 for the trigger cell r5c5, but I can't see "how?"
How the 2 was eliminated from the original options (256789), logically I mean?
Did I miss something? It won't be difficult to try them all out, of course.

I have tried several helpers, none works so far.
Yes, I am stubborn about getting to the bottom of my questions.
Can you blame me if I find something new, interesting,
and can't get enough info/answer about it?

Also, again, I apologize, since the original question I posted is actually answered.
YES, they are real. Maybe I should not ask tough follow-ups.

[Glyn]

To reach this point a considerable number of moves in the ER range 7-7.3 are required (more than in each of the 5 possibilities alone), but more critically several moves of tariff 8.3-8.5.

To verify that r5c5=2 doesn't work you could follow a game of similar complexity to the cases of 5-9 and reach conflict. That path is much simpler. In practice the puzzle creator will have used DLX to proceed as far as possible and either found 5 triggerable solution grids, or ,as it is their intention, they may have controlled the end game in the manner I hint at to enforce such a scenario.

[Draco]

Draco: Thanks for the help.
But again, how did you come up with the correct 5 options ?? from the final anwsers?
I am only a medium player. but also wondering how sudoku experts going to deal with this multiple thing.

First, perhaps I can summarize why your posts have been questioned:

1. You keep referencing the same website, in a "promotional" way
2. You keep asking the same kinds of questions and don't seem to be making use of the information (e.g. using Sudoko Explainer)
3. These are methods that are sometimes used by people who really don't want help with Sudoku, but want to drive traffic to their website.

Hope that helps you understand the community's reaction. Poeple here enjoy helping others learn how to solve puzzles. They don't like it much, in my experience, if their time is wasted by someone who really doesn't want to learn but just wants to drive traffic to their site/program.

That said, I'll take your replies as coming from someone who is interested in learning -- at least for now ;).

To answer your question I arrived at the possible squares manually. I looked at r5c5 in my Solver in "Puzzle Design" mode. It restricts the values that may be entered to those that are "legal", though that does not mean the puzzle is solvable.

I tried each legal value in r5c5 and checked to see if that resulted in a unique solution. Glyn's posts go into the details, so I won't restate them here. That lead to the 5 possible values for r5c5.

Cheers...

- drac

[Pat]

Pat: Thanks for the pointer and help.
The Explainer give me 2 solutions ( 5 and 6 ), without pointing out which one of (256789) is invalid. If the key can not be reached, forget about the rest of it. I am not interesting the answers, there are tons of solvers. The Explainer in this case, did not help either.
Andrew Stuart's solver failed it too. Do I must guess to get to the key for this one?

Draco: Thanks for the help.
But again, how did you come up with the correct 5 options ?? from the final anwsers?
I am only a medium player. but also wondering how sudoku experts going to deal with this multiple thing.

sorry i misunderstood your original question

Sudoku Explainer only works on proper SuDoku puzzles -- puzzles having exactly one answer.
if no answer, no problem, it will tell you.
but if more than one answer, big problem, unpredictable results!

so if your question was, when we look at r5c5 which could be any of 2,5-9 -- how do we determine that 2 is impossible and 5-9 are possible -- here's the answer --

remember in your earlier Topic you had asked, "anybody knows a good site to verify the ratings of sudoku puzzles?" -- well the answer i gave there will also answer your new question -- yes i mean you can use Sudoku Explainer -- you feed it the 6 potential puzzles (not the multiple-answer thing)---

this is the command-line --

java -cp SudokuExplainer.jar diuf.sudoku.test.Tester puzzles.TXT report.TXT

and this is what your input-file should contain (for the "Extreme-5" example) --

.....57..43....2.8...9......8....6..1...2......21..4...1..3...2.27..4.63..4..98..
.....57..43....2.8...9......8....6..1...5......21..4...1..3...2.27..4.63..4..98..
.....57..43....2.8...9......8....6..1...6......21..4...1..3...2.27..4.63..4..98..
.....57..43....2.8...9......8....6..1...7......21..4...1..3...2.27..4.63..4..98..
.....57..43....2.8...9......8....6..1...8......21..4...1..3...2.27..4.63..4..98..
.....57..43....2.8...9......8....6..1...9......21..4...1..3...2.27..4.63..4..98..

-- the resulting report will tell you that the first one "Failed !" -- and for the other 5 cases, will report the difficulty-rating

~ Pat

[wintder]

Can you blame me if I find something new, interesting,
and can't get enough info/answer about it?

This is far from new. Ruud released a version of Sudoku Cue that, when "Uniqueness" was enabled, generated puzzles of this type. Some were published and a discussion or several were ongoing.

It was resoundingly endorsed that these are not valid puzzles.

So, it isn't new, it is easy to create if you go and get archived versions of SQ.

Havard's beta of Sudoku Architect has a tool that shows valid puzzles with givens that have more than one VALID candidate available.

Havard's website has published puzzles of various ratings with the difference of a single given altered, these are valid puzzles.

In short, this is not new.